Welcome to the podcast where we talk to successful consultants in various industries. Today we are joined by Tom Pyun, a former nonprofit leader who transitioned to consulting. Tom is here to share his experience on why he decided to become a consultant, how he got his clients, and how he dealt with imposter syndrome.
He shares his strategies for getting clients, including networking, leveraging social media, and creating a personal brand. He shares his thoughts on who is best suited to consulting, highlighting the importance of diverse skills, adaptability, communication, and a strong work ethic.
To learn more about Tom and his consulting services, you can visit his website at www.tompyunconsulting.com or connect with him on LinkedIn at www.linkedin.com/in/tompyun/. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review.
“Work to live, not live to work” – Tom Pyun
Episode Transcript
RHEA WONG 00:05
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong. Hey podcast listeners. Welcome to another edition of Nonprofit Lowdown. Today, my guest is a friend Tom Pyun. He is a consultant like myself after a long career in nonprofits. So today we’re going to talk about, so you want to consult because I literally have people all up in my business every day asking how they too can be a consultant. So Tom and I are just going to pull back the cover. Tom, welcome to the show.
TOM PYUN 00:36
Thank you for having me. It’s very exciting to be here.
RHEA WONG 00:43
Is this your first time? Is this your virgin podcast?
TOM PYUN 00:47
This is my virgin podcast. Yes!
RHEA WONG 00:49
I’m so excited to be your first time. We’ll take it nice and easy. Alright, before we jump into the ins and outs and whatnot, can you give us a little tour of your background in nonprofit and what brought you to be your own boss, which is always the dream?
TOM PYUN 01:06
Yeah! I’ve been an independent strategy evaluation and learning consultant for foundations, actually government, and nonprofits. So I consider myself pretty cross-sector and I do that for about 15 years, as I said, and I’ve spent my entire career in the nonprofit sector, and what brought me to being independent are two things.
TOM PYUN 01:26
One, I read a book called The Four-Hour Workweek, which is by someone I would not have anything in common with. It’s like the cisgender white guy who’s like a tech bro, who really was I thought the book was very smart, and unfortunately, don’t work four hours a week. But I think there are a lot of takeaways about it, taking control over your work life, which I felt I really needed.
TOM PYUN 01:46
Second, I was drawn to independent consulting after quite frankly, some desperation. I have worked two “dream jobs,” one after the other that was really wrong for me in so many ways that I only can really pinpoint 10 years after. But after those two jobs, I was just like, oh, my gosh! These were supposed to be my dream career.
TOM PYUN 02:12
This is supposed to be my dream career. And I have it and it’s made me really unhappy. And I was like, I’m going to “take a break.” Because I need to make money. I need to pay rent and be independent. I’m going to freelance and then see what happens. I like it maybe I’ll stick around for a couple of years. And if I don’t, I’ll get another job. And 15 years later, I’m still doing it because I guess it works for me.
RHEA WONG 02:36
Okay, real talk here, because I feel like this story I hear all of the time, particularly from folks of color. They are burned out. And it’s like this system that was not designed, really for any human, but certainly not for people of color, or people who don’t fit into the mold. heteronormative, white, straight cisgender people who were just hella burned out.
RHEA WONG 03:03
So talk to me about it, we’re just gonna jump right into it. And I’m a big proponent. So I’m gonna put my bias out there. I’m always telling people that they should start their own businesses. But why do you think it’s important, particularly for folks of color to think about starting their own businesses and being consultants?
TOM PYUN 03:20
Yes! I think we need more people of color in every rung of organizations, whether our consultants internally, president/in office, etc. We need that.
RHEA WONG 03:32
Okay, I’m just clearing my throat significantly, please continue.
TOM PYUN 03:39
I think it’s important for people who are interested and excited about starting their own business, whether it be consulting or something else to actually pursue it. Because a: whether it’s society, or your own parents or your family that tells you you can’t do it, it’s that much more important for us to pursue our own dreams and what gives us energy and what makes life worth living.
TOM PYUN 04:03
And if that’s your own business, then do it. Try at least try it. My parents were immigrants. My mom told me that she worked three jobs. She worked as a night nurse, and then sold real estate during the day, and then ran a bunch of businesses also. Some are successful and some are not. So she worked basically 20 hours a day, and to raise four kids.
TOM PYUN 04:24
And she always said her dream for me was to become a global corporate lawyer and to work in a high rise and have it be clean and to get dressed up every day and not have to be “get dirty.” And that would have that life would have probably killed me. And I’m not saying that there’s nothing wrong with that life. I think that’s a wonderful life. And it’s a lot of life of a lot of privilege.
TOM PYUN 04:44
But because you wanted something so “stable” and I wanted to bunk that consulting is less stable than a job because I think that’s utter BS. I think consultants actually just a stable if not more stable than a job, and I can talk about that later. Because she wanted that so much from me, which is to either work in the government or work at a law firm or whatever.
TOM PYUN 05:03
It was really hard for me to do what I really wanted to do because I felt this pressure and she worked really hard for me. She’s unfortunately passed now, but I felt I needed to pursue that dream for her. And then I realized that was my dream. And I jumped doing my own thing, and it’s worked out.
RHEA WONG 05:17
Yeah! I was gonna say it was so funny. Now, listen, being both from an Asian background, I think I can really understand but the great irony is our generation has really been encouraged/pressured by our family to enter into the professional world. And yet the great irony is, the way that most Asians in this country have been successful is through entrepreneurship. It’s through small businesses. So it’s funny that they’re pushing us in this other way, which I guess is the view that it’s more stable or less labor, whatever. But, yeah! I don’t know. I didn’t really have a question there other than to say, me too.
TOM PYUN 06:047
And I think a lot and when there is your family or society telling you that you shouldn’t be on your own, trying to pursue which would really give fire to your ability or whatnot. But I don’t think that the parental stuff comes from a good place. It’s like my parents didn’t want me to fail. They didn’t want me to feel pain. They didn’t want me to have inconsistency of income, etc. But it wasn’t really the right advice for me.
RHEA WONG 06:28
Yeah! It’s at the price of your soul weathering. Alright, let’s talk about it. Because I am in a similar situation, which is I left a job. I took on some consulting projects, as I thought, as an interim strategy while I was looking for a job. And then I would look at jobs, and I had 0% desire to do any of them. So I guess in a way, I’m an accidental consultant. Tell me a little bit about some of the fears that you had when starting your own business because you and I could probably go on forever.
RHEA WONG 06:58
But for me, it was the money stuff, right? I had this thought about I’m gonna be in a cardboard box by the river with a dozen cats. I don’t even know how to cats. Like I had this whole narrative. But, then to your point, I was like, okay, worst case scenario, I try this and it doesn’t work. I guess I’ll just go get another six ED figure job. That’s the fallback. It’s alright. I’ll be fine. So speak to this friend.
TOM PYUN 07:24
Definitely, there’s a lot of anxiety about the money. I started consulting pretty young. In my career, I’m 45 now, and I was 31 when I started consulting, and I was worried about also insurance, health insurance. And that was the year after Obamacare, I think is founded, so was started when launched.
TOM PYUN 07:42
So it was the first time I could buy health insurance off the exchange I have asthma and I have some other pre-existing conditions, and you couldn’t get independent health insurance without, even if you were willing to pay exorbitant prices. So thank you, Barack Obama.
TOM PYUN 07:58
Thank you, that administration for creating an opportunity for budding entrepreneurs to pursue what they want to do with health insurance, right? So health insurance was the big issue. It’s definitely the money piece. I think the third thing was, I just felt like a huge fraud. I had huge impostor syndrome. I would get dressed and go to meetings.
TOM PYUN 08:17
And I’m like, I think I’ve always looked young, which has been a curse. And I’ll say, that’s one biggest challenge for people you look nine years old, and you want you to say you’re one of us, help us transform our organization or provide this highly specialized scientific skill. And I’m like, okay, I’m gonna fake it till I make it.
RHEA WONG 08:35
Try being a 26-year-old executive director. I look like I can’t even imagine walking into the room. And I was like, yes, I am. I am asking you for a six-figure gift. Oh, you’re cute. Yeah, anyway. Aren’t you cute? Are you going to spend it at the mall? No! I’m the Executive Director.
TOM PYUN 08:53
I’m a badass.
RHEA WONG 08:58
I’m a badass. I know. But I think there is like that element of, you gotta fake it until you make it. Because even if people aren’t perceiving you the way that you believe that they’re perceiving you. There’s like something about this self-talk in your head. I don’t know. I’ll speak for myself. Like, am I allowed to do this? Who do I think I am charging this money for this service? What if I’m a fraud and like, they’re gonna be mad at what they get? I don’t know. Do you play that tape in your head?
TOM PYUN 09:27
Definitely! The only thing that really got me over that is, of course, like years of therapy and experience and probably EMDR as somatic healing, you name all the different healing modalities. I’ve done it. I think what also got me over the hump, especially initially was a deep hunger. I had to make it work. I was interviewing for jobs that lives in the bay area at that time. I’m in LA now but I was interviewing for jobs.
TOM PYUN 09:50
And I send them a dude into job interviews, like over the years because it helps you remind me why I’m doing this go. I don’t really want that. And then I’m like, I find it I didn’t get the job. And I’m like, yes! But it’s like the whole… So the other options I had entailed commuting from San Francisco down to Silicon Valley, which is like an hour and a half drive each way. And hellacious, and I didn’t want to do that. And so I was like, I gotta make this consulting thing work because I’m living at the time in the most expensive region in the country. And I wanted to be there at that time.
TOM PYUN 10:26
And I need to make this work. Because I don’t want to go back to living abroad and doing the whole international development thing. I didn’t want to go back to a firm. And so I needed to make when I was hungry, and I think people when I first met them, I started doing kind of the business development rounds, people like, oh, you’re hungry, and I like that. And it just got me over that hump of, oh, my God!
TOM PYUN 10:50
What am I doing? I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m a mess. And I don’t feel that way at all anymore. I feel like I totally know what I’m doing. I know exactly what I need to do on these projects, etc. Of course, I need to learn and I need to be to have humility, of course, and an open mind and a growth mindset, etc. But the hunger really helped me power through at least the first two, or three years of this of my practice.
RHEA WONG 11:13
Yeah! I 100% agree with you. Once you taste the freedom, you’re like, oh, I could never go back. Like I am uncaged. At this point, I am totally unemployable. Like, I cannot have a boss or a board or anyone telling me what to do. And I think, I don’t know. Like I tasted liberation.
TOM PYUN 11:36
Exactly! And I do have clients tell me what to do. And I get told what to do. But it’s different. I choose to listen, and I choose to take orders sometimes. And it’s different. I do professional services. So I need to cater to people’s needs. But I choose that and when on my own terms, and I do it with love, if instead of feeling trapped.
TOM PYUN 11:55
And this gets down to one of my earlier points, which is that jobs can lay you off at any time. I see it all the time as a consultant. They bring me in because they’ve laid off a bunch of people. And it’s not like they’re even having financial problems. There are lots of reasons why nonprofits, organizations, or companies lay people off, whether to raise the stock price, etc.
TOM PYUN 12:17
That can happen. And with a contract, it’s actually much harder. So if I have a one-year contract. They’re not going to lay me off during the contract, most likely because they have deliverables. They have to meet for funders, etc. And so, I wish it’s easier to let you go and end your contract. And then you can plan for that. It’s not like you wake up one day and you have a job and the next day you don’t because of mass layoffs, right?
TOM PYUN 12:40
I think there are a new couple of streams of income. So you don’t have that stability. You have those ebbs and flows. But it’s not like you’ve gone from a salary to zero for unjust unemployment. So I just wanted to bunk that misconception that took me a long time to to learn.
RHEA WONG 12:53
Yeah! I couldn’t agree with you more. At this point, I’m four years into my practice, I’m making almost 3x the amount of money I ever made as an executive director. The truth is that it doesn’t come in as regularly, right? Like, I don’t get a paycheck every two weeks like I used to. But I know that when I put in the work, I’m reaping the benefits I have. Maybe I have some control issues. Okay, yes! I definitely have control issues.
RHEA WONG 13:18
But I like having control over my time and my income, and knowing, especially in the nonprofit world, the amount of work you do does not necessarily correlate to your compensation. And I’m done with that. If I work more, I want more money to come in. That’s just how it should be.
RHEA WONG 13:39
Okay, so let’s talk about if you’re listening to this podcast, and you’re currently working a full-time job, maybe this consulting thing or owning my own business thing might be for me, or it might not be for me. So in your opinion, who would be best suited to pursue this versus people who maybe would not be the best fit?
TOM PYUN 14:05
If you’re shy, I think it’d be very hard to do this job. I don’t think either of us is shy. I think whether or not we’re introverts or extroverts, we’re outgoing. Or, we can turn it on when we need to. I’m definitely becoming more of an introvert. I love to be alone in my house and in Santa Monica beach.
RHEA WONG 14:21
I’d like close to being a hermit and like, reclusive. But I agree. There is an outgoing and you have to be willing to talk to people. I’m sorry. Please, continue.
TOM PYUN 14:31
You have to be okay talk to people, reaching out to people, cold calling sometimes, cold emailing, asking for favors, etc. So if you’re incredibly shy, I think it’s hard. If you want to do the minimum, this is not the career for you. The way you build a career is by doing multiple gigs, which is not the minimum. Part-time jobs are more than one full-time job. It’s true. Even if the hours supposedly add up, it’s not. So if you want to do the minimum, you want to skate by.
TOM PYUN 15:02
If you’re a single parent, this can be pretty stressful. If you’re a single mother with three kids, you can do it. I know people who do it who are single moms with three kids. Maybe they did it three or four years into it. And I think that could be really stressful. That’s off the top of my head. But can we just get back to the control stuff? Because I had one client who insisted on putting things on my calendar, like sharing my calendar. I’m going again, I can’t put things on my calendar.
RHEA WONG 15:28
I want to talk about this for a second because I’ve been thinking a lot about time. Have you heard of the book 4000 weeks?
TOM PYUN 15:35
No, but I mentioned it on our pre-call. So I’d love to hear that.
RHEA WONG 15:38
Okay! I actually haven’t read it. I’ve listened to the podcast interviews with the author. But essentially, on average, we have 4000 weeks in a lifetime. And when put in that context, are like, oh, my God! What am I doing with 4000 weeks? I think it drives clarity because I’m like, I’m not going to do stuff I don’t want to do. I only have 4000 weeks on this planet to live my life. I’m going to do the thing I want to do.
RHEA WONG 16:03
I’m going to work with the people I want to work with. I don’t have time for the bullshit. I don’t have time to waste enormous amounts of time surfing Instagram, or whatever. Like I got to get to it if I want to make the most of the 4000 because I have on this planet. And I think if you have that itch in you, do it. You only have 4000 weeks to live your life.
TOM PYUN 16:20
And try it. Because I think both of us came in if you want to try it, right? If you have to feel the itch to try, again, you both came into this world thinking it’s temporary, and we turned into something permanent. I want to get to the chat question in which someone said they are a single parent. And I think there are ways to mitigate the risk of joining this, but to enter this business, which is if you have a nonprofit job or government job, make that your first client.
TOM PYUN 16:56
When you’re leaving and if your boss likes you and they love you, say I want to stay halftime as on the contract and make that your first job. I did that. That’s what I did. When I left the government, they said we’re your first client. And it gave me a contract and said to work from home. And I did that. And I did that when I started my business. And it was it. And I’ve learned over the years for me at least.
TOM PYUN 17:21
And this is not for everyone. Always have an anchor client. Some clients provide 50% or more of your income for the year or can support you 50% because you can go to 300%. The sky’s the limit in this world. But it’s really critical. I think the times when I’ve had a really piecemeal portfolio of like, smaller gigs, eight or nine small gigs, I felt the most dysregulated in terms of how I felt about my business. And that’s just how I’ve managed the income piece and an income flow piece. So I think there are ways to break to go into to de-risk this leap. And that’s one.
RHEA WONG 17:58
Yeah! And I would say the other offer to people is while you have your full-time job, bringing out a project. First of all, just to see if you like it, right? Because it could be that you get into it. You’re like I actually don’t like consulting. But having at least one project as the kid says a side hustle will help you as you transition.
RHEA WONG 18:18
So maybe you have two projects lined up when you put in your notice. But it leads me to the next question, which is how have you been sourcing clients. Because I think that’s the anxiety a lot of people have, which is I’m gonna start offering services and literally nobody will hire me to do anything. So how have you done that?
TOM PYUN 18:36
When I first started, then there’s now I do almost nothing. I’d be honest, people just come to me because I’ve been doing this long enough. And that’s a relief. In the first two, or three years, I talked to everyone I know, I made a gigantic Excel spreadsheet. I make 100 contacts of people who are decision-makers and people who aren’t decision-makers, and just tell an email, to everyone you know you’re doing. You want to do consulting, and this is what you want to specialize in.
TOM PYUN 19:02
That’s how the lesson was learned. I didn’t really specialize that much. And now I’m a little more specialized and that’s okay because I had to figure out what I was really good at. And I think that was really when I spent, probably, I don’t know, a couple of grand on coffees and lunches that completely came back to me and weren’t complete tax write-off or 50% tax write-off for meals and drinks and built a lot of friendships that way too.
TOM PYUN 19:23
And it was hard. It was hard to go out and hang out with people. And then at the end of hanging out, it’s like a regular hangout. And then you’re like, oh, yeah! I’m consulting. I’ve been people like you’re crazy.
TOM PYUN 19:33
But I do know two people I think you should talk to but I think you’re crazy. And then people actually admire that kind of gusto to go out on your own and people will support you hopefully. Some people don’t support you. But talking to 100 people, in your first year or two is going to be critical.
RHEA WONG 19:52
Yeah! That’s such a good point too because I think a lot of people think that they have to know exactly what they’re going to do out of the gate and the truth is it iterates over time. So when I came out of the gate, I took on projects I would never take on today, just because I didn’t know what I liked. I was like, alright! You take on projects just to get money in the door.
RHEA WONG 20:11
And then over time, you figure out, like, these are the kinds of things I like. I’m never gonna do that again. These are the kinds of clients I like. I’m never gonna work with that kind of person again, and you iterate your way into it. And then the other piece that I just want to lift up here is people respond to value, right? So if you go into this, very similar to fundraising, the space is not like, I need to get clients, but more what problem can I help people solve? It’s a different vibe, right? Because you’re really in the space of like, how do I add value? How do I help solve problems, and by the way, get paid to help you solve a problem?
TOM PYUN 20:53
I look less at the permutations. I think for a while, as a consultant, I really wanted to have maybe a full contract with the consultants. And I wanted to have clients engaged with me directly. And then I could pick and choose subcontractors, etc. And that hasn’t been the case. That also hasn’t been always the best thing for me. I’ve worked for other consultants, too.
TOM PYUN 21:16
I subcontract with their counsel for a piece of work, I’ve teamed up with. And that’s been actually some of the more lucrative and positive experiences I’ve had, just creating these collaborations with either small shops or even larger shops I’ve consulted with. I’ve joined their consulting team. I partnered with folks. I’ve been like a shadow person, like the person with this a very senior consultant who has been in the field for 30 years.
TOM PYUN 21:41
And sometimes I’ll do a little work for her, and she does all the client-facing stuff because I actually prefer that a little less. I like just actually to do the work. And it’s also more remote, and I love being location independent, etc. And then also, I’ve recently worked with an agency, like a very high-end consulting agency, and they brought me on and they pay me a salary every two weeks.
TOM PYUN 22:09
So it’s like thinking about the tax implications or like the kind of permutations of how you work. I think being flexible about it has been really helpful for me in terms of just trying new things, learning new things, and also building those relationships that help create a network that you can sustain in the long-term business.
RHEA WONG 22:22
Yeah! And I think you made such a good point because I think people who are nervous about trying this, create all sorts of obstacles like it’s going to be very complicated to pay taxes or healthcare or whatever like you conjure up these reasons not to. So I just want to point out like, you can hire a consultant to figure this out. You can hire a bookkeeper. You can have these all figured out. So you say that you don’t do much in the way of obtaining or bringing in leads. Is there anything that you’re doing as far as marketing yourself to just keep the awareness? I can talk about what I do, but love to hear more about what you’re doing.
TOM PYUN 23:00
Of course! I created it over the summer last year when I was in after I got vaccinated last year, I was like we don’t talk about this. It was a very low play. It’s a very dark place after the pandemic. I was too isolated. O wasn’t that motivated. It was a tough time for me as it was for many people. So I went to Bali to just reset and which is total privilege flex, but I really wanted to write a blog. And so I wrote four blog entries.
TOM PYUN 23:26
And I worked with my business partner on that around our kind of interactive, digital reporting business. And I had to really learn social media. I had a post on LinkedIn, posts on medium, posts on Facebook, Instagram, etc. And I got a lot of positive responses. And I got two job interviews for jobs I wasn’t excited about. I talk to people and talk to everyone.
TOM PYUN 23:53
And I got a consulting gig out of it, which was a really cool one in Boston, and working remotely, of course. And so that was really fun to talk about what I’ve learned in my specialty and what I think needs to be improved in the field and a lot that needs to be improved in the field. So that was great.
TOM PYUN 24:12
I think staying in touch with people is really important, too. Just like ongoing, have check-ins with people you like, just doing that is really important too. I want to hear about you and what you’re doing because you’re such a marketing badass, and I see what you’re doing and all the polish that goes into and all the work. So I want to learn from you.
RHEA WONG 24:31
Oh, my gosh! Okay, I’ve iterated my way into it. And this is like, not I’m always learning. But basically, I started my podcast in 2018, really mostly out of a selfish desire to want to talk to people. Especially in New York City, I have so many amazing leaders who are friends. And it’s like that New York thing and we’re like, yeah, we’ll get coffee and you never do.
RHEA WONG 24:53
So it’s like if I have a publishing schedule, and I have to put a microphone in your face like we got to make this happen. So that was a really good impetus. And I think it’s been a big driver of getting people into my ecosystem. I also have my weekly newsletter for all of the folks out here, thinking about starting your own thing. Your email list is gold, whatever you do, you should be driving people to your email list because that’s what you own.
RHEA WONG 25:20
I think a lot of people think that if they have like a bajillion followers on whatever social media, they’re good to go. But the truth is, they can flip the algorithm on you tomorrow, and you don’t have any of that information. So there’s that. And then the last thing I would just flag is having one or two social media platforms that you go deep on. And as I started, I was super overwhelmed. I was like, oh, my God! I could do Facebook.
RHEA WONG 25:46
I could do LinkedIn. I could do Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter, but it was really overwhelming. And so I just decided that LinkedIn was going to be where I would live, particularly given the kind of demographics that are on LinkedIn, and that the rest, I would just bless and release. They did not spark joy in me. And so I have about 14,000 followers on LinkedIn. But on the other platforms, I’m just like, toast like, no one knows anything about me.
RHEA WONG 26:12
So there are a couple of key things. Above all, I would say consistency is the number one thing. So if you have a newsletter, or if you have a podcast, it has to be regular. Everyone knows, Monday morning, that podcast is going to be in your inbox or whatever it is. Every Tuesday morning, I’m going to have that email to you. So yeah, then the content beast is real. You got to feed that machine.
TOM PYUN 26:39
And that’s how I found you, actually, on LinkedIn. So going deeper with one social media platform worked in that way. So when I guess you showed up in my feed, and your king for podcasts, people interviewees, and I just jumped in your inbox, and I was like, please,
RHEA WONG 26:54
Oh, my gosh! Tom, can I just tell you? I put a call out, particularly for folks of color, and you are the only person who deemed me. I also think it’s like a problem because I got no disrespect. But like, I got white dudes all up in my inbox, raising their hands all the time. And I’m like, okay, the world is certain enough. We’re good.
RHEA WONG 27:13
But often, when I approached people of color, particularly women of color to be on my pod, the first one is like, really me? I don’t know. Do I have something to say? I’m like, really? Because I got a bunch of white guys out here who feel like they have all the things to say. So I just wanna lay that out there for my folks of color listening, you should be pitching yourselves as much as possible.
TOM PYUN 27:36
It gets down to the imposter syndrome and the messages society, and sometimes our own families and we’ve internalized that we’ve internalized these messages in many ways. And it’s really unfortunate, and we need to actively work against that ourselves out there. And it’s not easy, but do it and you’ve done it, and I’m doing it. And it’s just a lot of internal work.
TOM PYUN 27:58
I feel like what’s made my business better is a lot of the internal, spiritual, emotional, and mental health work. I’ve done on myself, really leaned into, especially because of the pandemic. I love that. I love those lessons learned in terms of your social media work. And I’m going to think about it and see what I can do.
RHEA WONG 28:16
Yeah! I’m happy to chat with you about it. Actually, I’m just starting to read a book. It’s called the High Five something. But it’s written by this woman who was like a motivational speaker. And she was talking about how she would look in the mirror every morning and be like, oh! I look old. Just like why am I doing this to myself? And so instead, she high-fives herself every morning in the mirror. And I was like, yeah! I think we should all high-five ourselves every morning. We need to be our own cheerleaders. Because we’re so good at doing it for other people, but we tear ourselves down so much. I’m not into that anymore.
TOM PYUN 28:50
I have my mantras, too. I have my mantras, too. And I’m like, oh, my God! There was this comedian, Stuart Smalley. It’s a comedy skit. It was good enough for people like me.
RHEA WONG 29:02
That’s when started that people like me.
TOM PYUN 29:06
And now I have my own mantra every morning I say to myself, just give me that gift to make sure that I do self-love. Like bringing lights and light love to clients to the people in my life. And because it’s hard, the world’s gonna tear you down.
RHEA WONG 29:23
Oh, my gosh! Tom, I was thinking about this. And it’s like, I feel like for the longest I was in an abusive relationship with myself. Do you know what I mean? I would say horrible things to myself. I’m like, wait for a second. I wouldn’t put up with that. But if someone else said that to me, why am I saying it to myself? Anyway, that’s a whole other topic for another day. Well, we should have it on another podcast. Let’s talk about pricing. I wanna talk about pricing for a second. So I know that pricing is a big topic that a lot of folks think about.
RHEA WONG 29:53
I call it the Chad text. So what I have done and have counseled people to do particularly folks of color is when they think about putting an amount down for the scope of work, put down the amount that you think and then triple it, and then send it in. I call it the Chad text. Or, what does Chad do? Chad the nameless, like, khaki white dude, like, of course, I’m worth it. And I think as folks of color, we tend to underprice. And we tend to undervalue our labor. But what do you think about pricing?
TOM PYUN 30:26
Okay, I agree 150%. I’ll tell you where I story when I first started. A few people told me, what are you making now, cut it in half and divide it by 1000 and make that your hourly. So if I just had, let’s just say I was making $80,000 a year when I started consulting 15 years ago. Then you charge $40 an hour because it’s half. And so I was charging, like $50 an hour for the first two consulting projects. It’s true. I do not charge that anymore.
TOM PYUN 30:59
But I was getting turned down for consulting gigs from the big institutions, because it was like, if you’re charging $50 an hour, you are not at the level that we need to execute on this project. So it ended up being a deterrent to like the clients I wanted to bring into my portfolio. And then the great thing about working with teams and working with other senior consultants who you trust is if I would see their proposals.
TOM PYUN 31:27
And I was like, oh my, God! At the time, they’re charging 250. And I was like, I’m doing all the work. And they’re charging, and they’re billing me out at such and such. And then the beautiful thing about partnering with them, is they don’t take overhead, usually, they give you exactly what is scoped out. So there’s trust. If you work for a firm, that isn’t the case. There are lots of different overheads that you’re billing out. They’re taking them when they’re billing you out.
TOM PYUN 31:48
But I think that was hard to learn, oh, this is what other people are charging. And I’m doing a lot of the work. And I was seeing a lot of people doing terrible work and charging six or seven times what I was charging $50 an hour, and I was like, wait for a second. I need to think about it. And then other consultants, meaning other consultants is actually such a sheet, it’s been the hugest benefit. They’re not competition.
TOM PYUN 32:13
They’re collaborators. There’s no competition. There’s always a collaboration, I think, I should really think about them. That’s how my sector works. If you’re like, Tom, you’re paying for your own insurance for health. A lot of times you have to get business insurance to make sure that if you basically die, they get their money back. The client gets their money because he can’t finish the project. So it’s called like, you know, I think you and I forgot the name of it.
TOM PYUN 32:36
But you would think by that. You have to pay for your own retirement. You have to pay for all the things you need to get that need to be bundled into your hourly. And then on top of it, I work really friggin fast. I like I don’t do the battle. I like to get my stuff done. So that has to be baked into the hourly as well. So three or four times? That sounds exactly right.
RHEA WONG 32:57
Wait, I’m just trying to clarify those two. I do not do hourly. I don’t think you should do hourly unless you want to be poor. I only charge by project and million dollar consultant by Alan Dib changed my life. Anyway, he’s he talks about value pricing. So the way that I counseled people is to scope out the value of the project that you’re doing for the client, right?
RHEA WONG 33:14
And then whatever that value is charge 10 to one. So let’s say you’re doing an HR retention project, and you can calculate that based on your work. They are able to save $300,000 in employee retention, and then your rate should be 10 to one of what the value is for the organization. Does that make sense to you?
TOM PYUN 33:49
I agree 100%. Unfortunately, a lot of like, kind of the older institutions that I work with, they still want an hourly scope. So I just do it and then like, oh my, God! Do you charge what? I’m badass. I don’t say it like that. But I’m like, I’m worth it. I worked with all these other big institutions. They thought my work was exceptional. And if you want a sure thing, you pay for that. And so I agree, I do prefer to be to pay for just a scope of work or a retainer. But not every institution adheres to that. So you have to be flexible. As I said before be flexible, but make it work for yourself. You don’t have to be flexible, but also make it work for you.
RHEA WONG 34:33
So I was thinking about that triumphant, you can have good, fast, or cheap pick tip, right? And so as a consultant, you have to decide where are you going to live. Are you going to live in like the good and fast that means you are going to be cheap. Or, are you going to be good and cheap? That means you’re not going to be fast, etc. But for folks listening, you should always live in the good and fast quadrants.
TOM PYUN 34:59
I know good and cheap. I know one good and cheap person and her life is completely unmanageable. I don’t know how she lives actually, I don’t know how she manages her life because she’s a year behind on all her projects. And she’s I’m working 60 to 70 hours a week. And if you’re doing this to work 60 to 70 hours a week, that’s not really… I don’t know. That’s not what I would do.
TOM PYUN 35:25
I want to do this so I can have to manage my life better. And not live to work, but work to live. And yes, so if you’re good and cheap, it works, and this person has a very thriving, busy practice. But I’d rather work 20 hours a week and make great money and really just have fewer clients. Those are the things that really feed me and feed my soul and give me space to pursue the things I want to pursue.
RHEA WONG 35:55
Okay! Let’s talk about clients for a second because I agree with you. So I think we can all agree that not every client is fun to work with. And I’m wondering how you have been able to suss out the folks that you really want to work with versus those you don’t want to work with. Do you have a discovery process that you go through?
RHEA WONG 36:16
Because I think at the beginning, when you’re starting out, you do take on whoever kind of comes to the door just to get that motor going. But given the fact that you’ve been in the business, as long as you have given the fact that I’ve been doing this for four years, I can tell when someone may not be someone I want to work with. So what does that look like for you?
TOM PYUN 36:35
I think that I look at their website to look for values around racial equity, and that has to be there. And something about diversity, equity, inclusion, and racial equity, institution has to be on some journey toward racial and social justice. If they’re not, I know it’s going to be a rough call, the values thing, I think, second, getting back to your wheel or your triumvirate of good, fast, cheap, if money, if the cost of my services are the kind of the first or second thing to bring up and they’re already complaining about on the first or second call. It’s not going to work. And I’m like, I’ll recommend someone else who’s cheap, but they’re probably not available.
TOM PYUN 37:16
And then I consider myself at the higher end of quality. And so I wanted but that’s just the way it is because I’m good and I’m fast. So if you’re really balking, oh, we only have $5,000 to do this gigantic strategic plan. It’s going to take nine months just to talk to local board members. I’ll probably be like, oh, yeah! I don’t have time, or I’m not the right fit. Usually, that’s the second piece, they’re already talking about price, and they’re really caught up on a budget, keeping their budget requests below possible. That usually just then eliminates half of my leads.
RHEA WONG 37:56
So I don’t actually do one on one client work anymore. But I always interview people who apply to my accelerator because I want to make sure that we’re on the level. There’s just something about the energy exchange. If I feel like you’re coming from, like a positive generative space versus someone who I feel like, we’re like not, we’re not like aligned energetically. I know it. I’m in California. I feel like there has to be that energy exchange of are we feeling each other? Are we vibing? Or, do I feel like it’s a struggle to talk to you? Because if it’s a struggle to talk to you after the first call, it’s always going to be a struggle.
TOM PYUN 38:32
Exactly! I mean, it’s definitely an energy thing, like thinking that person is coming from a little bit of a more growth mindset. I know that’s such a jargon, and overused word, but also I work with a lot of clients who are of color. And if they’re not of color, if they are white, that’s great. But there has to be some evidence that you’ve done some work, or if you thought about it, or you care.
TOM PYUN 38:55
And usually, you’re not even talking to me, if you’re a white person who hasn’t done any work around racial privilege, etc, you’re probably not going to talk to me. Let’s be real. I mean, there is a little bit of self-selection, if you look at my website, etc. But who’s going to want to work with me and I always recommend, the more specialized you are, the probably more successful you’ll be.
TOM PYUN 39:12
I like keeping it a little open because I like to surprise content areas. Sometimes, oh my, God! This is something I’ve never thought about doing and I want to learn more about this. So the skill sets are always aligned. But sometimes the content we’re working on. It’s out of the left field and that’s exciting.
RHEA WONG 39:30
Yeah! To say that again. I feel like this cannot be said enough. The riches are in the niches, right? If you’re trying to dominate a space and you’re a generalist, it’s very hard, which is why you have to niche down to own one specific thing, which is why I focused on major gift fundraising. I’m not going to talk about like proposals and foundation and annual appeal and events like I’m not doing any of that but if you want to come to talk to me about major gift fundraising, I’m the girl.
TOM PYUN 39:59
That’s awesome! And I’m becoming that around valuation and kind of narrative story-based versions of that, that work being very narrative oriented being raised because I’m a creative writer also. So bringing, writing, storytelling narrative and merging that with strategy, organizational learning, and evaluation, because a lot of people write 250-page reports that are so deeply boring and say nothing. I think you build a story into that.
RHEA WONG 40:27
Do not get me started on that. I was reading some strategic plans. I was like, I hope you did not pay money for this. Oh, you did? Oh, I’m sorry. All right, Clarena has a question for you. Jump in here and ask your question, and then we’ll wrap up.
CLARENA 40:39
Thank you so much. This has been fantastic. It’s almost like watching two friends just chat. And I’m just like, oh, yeah, tell me more. This is great. So I think I have been in the nonprofit field in different ways. So I was a donor for a long time to a cause that I felt very close to for suicide prevention. And then I ended up through that, realizing that I was really good at fundraising as a donor, because I was fundraising for a walk, trying to just get people more involved. And then now I’ve been in the fundraising field for a while.
CLARENA 41:13
And I’ve played a few different roles so far. But I think one of the things is like, eventually the goal is to become a consultant, other than joining a board, which is the extra thing that I’m doing. So I’ve played a couple of different roles. I’m like, going to the AFP icon. I’m doing all these different ways to learn more about fundraising and joining another board for a different nonprofit.
CLARENA 41:35
What are other ways that would benefit me to find that niche and to really understand, I know that I’m not ready now to become a consultant. Because I feel like I don’t know enough. And I don’t have a niche. But I feel like the more I will learn, I’ll eventually get there. I just didn’t know there were other things that I should add on other than networking and all the other facets that I could do.
RHEA WONG 41:57
Yeah! I actually have a really good recommendation for you. The thing that I wish I had done earlier, is hiring a coach, like a business coach, or someone who can help with entrepreneurship, because I feel like I was an accidental consultant. And I learned a bunch of stuff. And honestly, if I have just bitten the bullet, and hired a coach to help me through it, I would have been so much further ahead in a much shorter period of time. So that’s my big thing. What about you, Tom?
TOM PYUN 42:28
I’m going to push back. And I think that you do have enough to offer as a consultant. And if you want to do it, of course, if you feel it’s the right time in your life. I think you do know a lot. It’s just about confidence. No matter how much more time I’ve worked a full-time job over the past 15 years, I don’t think I ever would have welcomed like, I feel like I know so much and can be a consultant because I’m not a narcissist or sociopath.
TOM PYUN 42:53
I think that a lot of people feel that way they don’t feel like they are waiting to know enough. And I bet you do have something to offer. And that says you have to be a little bit willing to fail to try things that are a little bit outside your wheelhouse. And then you’ll learn your hustle if you work. If you’re willing to do more than the minimum, you’re willing to work hard, you’ll do your best. And it might be a home run, it might be a C+, it might be a B-, and you’ll learn from that. So it’s less about getting your feet wet.
TOM PYUN 43:20
I think it’s more about jumping in when it’s the right time for you. And then learning as you go, of course, if something seems completely out of my wheelhouse, I know now. I’m gonna say no to that because already I can feel it in my bones. This is not going to work. I don’t know how to do that. However, this is just not a good value proposition, one project or potential clients say they wanted me to work on creating a translation call center for affordable care. I was like, I know nothing about that.
TOM PYUN 43:49
And I know I can’t do that for $50,000. So I’m gonna have to pack and take a pass. But if you feel you can do it, you probably can do it. It’s just about being willing to learn and also being a little bit open to failure. I’m like a classic type A overachiever. And I don’t say that to brag. I say that it’s reliability because now I’m realizing it’s okay that not every project has to be a home run. I say 80% of them go very well and 20% don’t. And I let people go. I’ve learned to fire clients. I’m only in the last five years. Because I’m so codependent. I think I could fix and save everyone now. So I’m willing to fail and willing to be like, you know what, I fell short. And that’s okay. I’m human. And I’m still a good person.
RHEA WONG 44:39
Yeah! I agree. I think there’s got to be some hutzpah here to do stuff and be willing to fail. And I think if I had to give myself advice, invest early and often in things that will take me further. For me, I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on underdevelopment and coaching, and right now I’m in a mastermind group, right? So you really have to invest in the brain because that is your main vehicle for wealth creation.
RHEA WONG 45:11
So to frame it for you, it’s not that I think that you don’t already know the stuff. I’m pretty sure you have a lot of expertise and knowledge you already have. There are just some things around frameworks and practices that you could save time. Not having to learn on your own because there are people who’ve already figured it out. Okay, we got to wrap this up. This is so fun. Tom, last thoughts about what advice would you give to your little baby consultant self if you could go back 15 years?
TOM PYUN 45:44
I’ve just stuck on this hole. It’s okay to fail. I think as a person of color, as a child of immigrants, from parents with pretty high expectations, as a child who’s queer as a queer person, there’s a lot of kind of forces that made it too scary, too painful to fail. And anytime I did come up short because I’m human, I was so hard on myself. It was like I murdered a baby animal. And it literally just made a mistake, or I was working a lot of times with really difficult people, especially at jobs. That’s really difficult. But I attracted basically, my parents as bosses.
RHEA WONG 46+:28
Your immigrant parents, they’re never going to approve of you because you never do enough.
TOM PYUN 46:33
Yeah! I recreated it. Right? I’m not always but I did get some really nurturing supportive bosses, too, but so hard on myself, and just not to be as hard on myself. I think, second, I don’t think I knew my worth, I had a really hard time leaning into what I was worth. And now I know, 15 years, this, I’m worth a lot, and I can do a lot. And I proved myself. I’m tired of proving myself because I’ve proved myself. Yeah, I think that’s like the two and the two things. I wish I could have told my baby consultants.
RHEA WONG 47:05
This has been so much fun. We have to have you back on the pod so that we can talk about all the other things that we didn’t get to talk about. But I’m going to make sure to put your LinkedIn and your website in the show notes for folks who want to get in touch with you. Because if you’re listening to this podcast, and you want to hire Tom, get in on it because he is good, and he is fast, but he is not cheap. And his dance card is full of people. Thanks, Tom.
TOM PYUN 47:30
This was awesome. I think you’re a badass.
RHEA WONG 47:34
You’re a badass. Thank you so much.
TOM PYUN 47:38
And I know we’re both kind of location independent. So I hope our locations are made for…
RHEA WONG 47:44
I would love that. I would love that. I’m in Ohio right now. So if you want to come up from LA, we can hang out.
TOM PYUN 47:50
I do want to go on a hike. I do.
RHEA WONG 47:54
We’ll go on a hike. All right! Have a good weekend, everyone. Thanks!
TOM PYUN 47:59
Thank you!
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