In this episode, we chat with Tony Martignetti, an expert in planned giving programs. Planned giving is a way for everyday people to make a big impact on their favorite nonprofits by giving a gift through their will or estate. Tony shares his insights on what makes a successful planned giving program and how organizations can get started without a lot of resources or technical expertise. He also recommends the Planned Giving Accelerator, an online course that offers a step-by-step guide to creating a successful program.
Check out the Planned Giving Accelerator at plannedgivingaccelerator.com
“Don’t think that planned giving is only for your wealthy donors.” – Tony
Episode Transcript
RHEA WONG 00:07
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong. Hey. podcast listeners! Rhea Wong is with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today I’m speaking with Tony Martignetti and we are going to talk about Planned Giving. Tony Martignetti has been starting and growing Planned Giving programs since 1997. Last year was his 25th anniversary. He has been consulting in Planned Giving since 2003. Now he leads Planned Giving Accelerator, a membership community to lodge a thousand New Planned Giving programs in the US. It’s at plannedgivingaccelerator.com. Tony, welcome to the show.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 00:42
Thank you, Rhea. Thanks so much for having me.
RHEA WONG 00:44
It’s a pleasure. I thought it was about time that we chatted. Before we get into the nitty-gritty. Can you give us a sense of how to get into the Planned Giving game? It’s a pretty unique niche.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 00:56
Yeah! The first step was hating practicing law. That was a prerequisite for me, I spent only two years, you could say either too short or too very long years practicing law, hated it and reengineered myself into something where the law helps. It helps related to Planned Giving. But by no means, I don’t want to put people off at all, by no means, if I emphasize that enough, do you need to be a lawyer or have any legal training, whatsoever, to do Planned Giving very successful?
RHEA WONG 01:30
It’s good to know. And it’s funny, you should mention this because I know more recovering lawyers than I do actual practicing lawyers. Okay, so let’s jump into this. So for those of us who are complete and total newbies, what is Planned Giving?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 01:43
These are long-term gifts to nonprofits. And they are in people’s estate plans or maybe their retirement plans. And the easiest example is a gift in someone’s will. It’s not a gift of cash until the person has died. So they make their commitment today. But it’s not a gift of cash to your nonprofit until the person has died. You need to have a long-term view of fundraising.
RHEA WONG 02:14
So I know that we might use different terminology and isn’t the same thing. So we can talk about Planned Giving. We can talk about bequests, and we can talk about gifts in the world. Are those all the same things? Are they different?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 02:26
Planned Giving is the umbrella and charitable bequests are a subset under the umbrella and gifts in wills, that’s exactly the same thing as a charitable bequest. The definition of a charitable bequest is a gift in someone’s will or requesting someone’s will.
RHEA WONG 02:46
I’m just going to jump into it because I know folks are anxious to know about this. First and foremost, I feel like a lot of people can be anxious about talking about a Planned Giving Program because ultimately you’re talking about people’s mortality. And so I’m wondering, is that something that people have a hard time with?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 03:03
Can I disabuse you of the myth that this conversation… Thank you. All right. That this is a conversation about death. It’s about life. The life of your nonprofit. The sustainability of your nonprofit, and the growth of your nonprofit endowment, so it’s about life. You’re talking about your mission, and how important it is in your community. However, you define community, right? It might be a small community, might be a state, a province for our neighbors in the north, might be a nation, or might be the environment, however, you define community, and how important your work is to that community for decades and generations to come. Your work needs to be sustained, right?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 03:49
It needs to continue. You don’t want to have a future where you’re ripped work ceases in 10 or 15 or 20 years. And the gifts in wills that you’d be talking to folks about are intended to prevent that ugly future from ever happening. Your work does continue. It doesn’t cease and your community doesn’t suffer 15, 20, to 30 years from now, because your work has stopped. So it’s about life. It’s about the life of your nonprofit. Sustainability, of course, and endowment, that important savings account that helps you remain sustainable. That’s what planned gifts are all about.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 04:31
And if I could just make one clarification on something I said, I don’t want to confuse folks. There are lots of other types of planned gifts beyond gifts in wills. They can be life insurance, IRAs, remainder trusts, charitable lead trusts, charitable gift annuities, and retained life estate, which is for real estate gifts, and these are all valuable for your listeners who want to launch Planned Giving, just getting started in Planned Giving, the place to start is where you and I are talking. These are gifts in wills.
RHEA WONG 05:02
Okay! And I think I’d love to talk about that a little bit later. Because I do think the complications of all of the different kinds of vehicles can be intimidating for people. So the question is if you’re just a normal layperson, without knowledge of the different kinds of tax, and detail of the giving, how do you get started? But let’s put a pin in that for the moment. So the thing that I think is really resonating for me is the word legacy that comes up. And I know a lot of nonprofits having the legacy society, which basically, to your point is the people who have put in a charitable bequest in their will. So if I’m just getting started, Tony, how do I begin? Like, how do we even know which people might be a candidate set to start to have this conversation?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 05:52
You listen to this podcast, of course, that’s how you’re going to learn. The folks you want to be talking to are your long-term committed, loyal donors. So I’m talking about folks that have made 10, 12, or maybe 15 gifts in the past 10 years. For your listeners whose nonprofits have been around so much longer, they might see 35 or 40 gifts over 25 or 30 years, right? Your long-term, consistent, loyal donors, are the folks that are ready to have a conversation about including you in their will. And I like to start this conversation with folks who are about 55 to 60 and over.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 06:39
That’s because that’s the age roughly, that people start thinking about their long-term plans. Specifically, we’re talking about their will, right? As a way of giving back to the causes that have been important to them. You can do Planned Giving at much younger ages/ You can be talking to millennials easily. But when you’re getting started, the low-hanging fruit, the most likely, folks are those who are 55 to 60, and over. And they’re the ones whose gift is most likely to remain in their will.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 07:17
Because somebody who’s 25 or 30, they’re going to be living 60 years, right? Maybe 70 years, that’s a long time for your work to remain in somebody’s will. I’m not saying it’s impossible. Of course not, it’s not impossible. Let’s put it this way. That’s a heavy stewardship lift, 60 or 70 years where the stewardship, so the likelihood of the gift remaining in the will is much higher when the folks who are much older like 55 to 60 and over.
RHEA WONG 07:45
So what I’m hearing and thinking about it is that it’s really about the longevity of the donor versus the capacity per se, because one thing that stuck with me as a friend of mine was telling me when she was raising money in New York. That’s a lot of requests. They got were school teachers, not necessarily people who they would have identified as being high capacity. So can you speak to that? Is it really about looking at the people who’ve been giving over time first? Or, is it about people who have significant capacity?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 08:17
You’re hearing it just right. It is the folks who have been the committed donors and those gifts that I mentioned earlier, I don’t care if the average gift size is $5. Somebody’s giving you $5. And they’ve done it 10, 12, or 15 times over 10 years, or 30 years, 30 times over 20 years or 30 years. They are terrific planned giving prospects. So, absolutely, Rhea! The teachers you’re talking about are just ordinary folks, postal workers, right? Teachers, public employees, these folks, it’s the loyalty and the commitment that you’re looking for. Don’t think that Planned Giving is only for your wealthy donors or your major donors. You’d be leaving a lot of money on the table if you proceed that way.
RHEA WONG 09:03
I love that. Okay, so most of you, you totally got it. I have a lot of very loyal donors. Maybe they’re small-dollar donors, but maybe they’re ready for this conversation. How don’t we begin? What’s the first step in this process?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 09:15
Are we stratifying those committed loyal donors that you pulled out of your CRM database? Let’s identify the folks at the top that again, it’s not at the top of giving, and not the major donors in this committed list. But I’m looking for the folks who somebody in the nonprofit already has an existing relationship with, to the point where you’ve met a couple of times, or you’ve talked a bunch of times, to the point where you’re confident that they will pick up the phone when they see your name on the caller ID or they’ll return your call if you leave a message.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 09:48
Those folks, those are your top prospects, and they’re going to get a personalized face-to-face or at least personal solicitation versus all those other coming loyal donors, who nobody in their nonprofit has a relationship with, of course, you’re grateful for all their longevity of giving, but they just haven’t ever risen to the point where somebody in the organization knows them well. So those folks are going to get personalized and mass solicitations, cultivation, and solicitation.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 10:20
So then I would start, so once you got your top prospects, and you got, let’s call them tier two prospects, the folks that we’re going to be solicited in a group by either email, or most likely, or print mail. And let’s start talking to the top prospects. Let’s get a meeting. Let’s get phone calls, Zoom, however your meeting. Tell them that we’re focusing on long-term gifts. We’re thinking about the sustainability of our work, and how important it is to our community because you’ve been giving to it so loyally over so many years.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 10:51
As we’re focused on the long term, we’re asking people like you, our committed loyal donors just like you, to include us in your will. Is that something you’d consider? So don’t make that the first conference in your opening conversation when you sit down over lunch of at the lunch table?, but you know how to work your way into it.
RHEA WONG 11:12
Yeah! And I know a lot of people think that they need to start like a programmer society to even start to have that conversation. What are your thoughts on that?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 11:20
I’m like Planned Giving recognition to societies. Yes! And I guess just a little digression, I would urge your listeners to not call it the legacy circle or Heritage Fund or Heritage Society because those are ubiquitous. Those could be anywhere, the legacy circle. So call it something unique to your organization. Like maybe it’s the founder’s name. Or, if you have a brick-and-mortar building, maybe your address, some organizations have been at an address for so long that everybody just identifies that address. within your organization. It could be like in New York City example.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 12:01
It could be the 300 Lex Society for 300 Lexington Ave. Here’s one that every organization has your founding, the 1977 circle, right? Everybody’s got that. Everyone’s got a year that they were founded. So my little digression into urging you to stay away from the ubiquitous legacy circle, Heritage Fund. But I don’t think that creating that recognition society is a prerequisite to opening conversations about Planned Giving, because no one is going to be moved to include you in their will, because they’re going to be members of 1977. It’s nice to have, but nobody’s gonna be moved by that. Oh, yeah, that could be in the 77th circle, of course. I’m going to meet with my attorney next week. It’s not going to happen like that. I always encourage folks, to think about how they can start planned giving. it’s not in the “why you can’t” category. We don’t have a recognition society. Alright, so what’s that going to take?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 13:03
Alright, we got to come up with a bunch of names, to float them up through my director of development, who has to go to my vice president, who has to go to the CEO, who then has to go to the board. We’re looking at a nine-month process to get the recognition society name approved. Don’t wait nine months. Start soon. And you can do the recognition society down the road. Even if you don’t have all those layers of authorization above you, start opening doors. Start opening conversations. The recognition society, you can work on that concurrently.
RHEA WONG 13:35
Yeah, that’s a good point. You just get started. Don’t create reasons to stop you. What is the role of the board in this?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 13:43
I like to see leadership on the board, and any new initiative. There are key volunteers. There are insiders. They know the best of anybody, ideally. So I’d like to see 100% participation on the board. I’d like to see all board members include the organization in their will.
RHEA WONG 13:59
Okay, so let’s say we get this going. We have people who put us in the will, of course, it’s a hard thing to project out. Because you don’t know when people are going to no longer be on this planet. What happens when, let’s say, Rhea Wongl expires, and there is a gift made to the organization? Like logistically, what does that look like? And what do we do from there?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 14:26
All right, well, I don’t even want to hypothesize what it looks like when Rhea Wong leaves the earth. It’d be a sad day universally.
RHEA WONG 14:32
Oh, it’s going to happen one day, but hopefully not anytime soon.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 14:36
No, certainly not. All right, so what will happen then, if Rhea has your nonprofit in her will, then when she dies, you’ll get an official notice. It’s called the notice of probate. It’s required by law to be sent to every person and every organization that’s named in the will and you’ll be informed that the has died and she remembered you in her will. And here’s the process for you to get your gift over the next several months. It’s not a technical process at all. And as I said, by law, that notice has to be sent to everybody named in the will.
RHEA WONG 15:16
What does that look like from a stewardship position? Or, I guess I’m wondering if you have any clients that you could point to like, they did a really nice job, because presumably if someone has passed away, they have loved ones who might want to see some kind of recognition, might want to be acknowledged in some way. I’m just wondering, logistically, what does that look like?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 15:34
Of course, stewardship begins while the person is still living. If they’ve told you that they’ve included you, a lot of people don’t, some people, it’s just too personal and too private for them. So they will tell you, but for the ones who have, of course, you welcome them to your new recognition society, which you understood you did not have to create before you started the conversation with the person. All right, you welcome to interior recognitions, deciding you’re thanking them generously through the years.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 15:58
Maybe you’re inviting them to events. Maybe you have an insider communication that your major donors get that you’re planning on giving donors could get also. So there’s that stewardship during life. And then Rhea, to your question about death, you can ask if there’s a family member that we can speak to, in that notice that you get that official notice. It will, in all likelihood, name an attorney that’s helping to distribute the gifts from that state. And you can inquire with that attorney.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 16:29
Is there a family member who we could thank? And sometimes they’ll say yes. Here’s the address. Or, sometimes they’ll say, yes, send your communication to me, and then I’ll fold it on. Okay, that’s fine. And sometimes they’ll say, no. The family doesn’t want to hear or they’re just so many charities. I’ve seen wills. I’m not exaggerating scores of charities. So there might be the case that there are just too many charities and the family would like to thank you for your wish, but they don’t really want to hear from all the charities. But you certainly could inquire with the attorney that name notice that you’ll get.
RHEA WONG 17:10
And do you have any guidance for folks who are having these conversations? Is it better to have a restricted gift? Obviously, we’d love unrestricted. But is there any guidance on is it a bigger gift, potentially, if it’s restricted?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 17:26
No, I haven’t seen a differentiation between unrestricted and restricted gift sizes, I’ve seen enormous unrestricted gifts, millions of dollars in a single will that is unrestricted. So it’s not that. I would say if the person wants to restrict their gift in their will, then it’s probably best that they talk to you so that we can craft the program, identify the program, and craft the language so that it’s going to be used the way the donor wants it to be used.
RHEA WONG 17:59
Okay, let’s get back to the question of the different giving vehicles because I have to say, it’s very intimidating for me when I think about all the different ways to give. So what would your advice be to someone like myself, who’s not an accountant, not a lawyer, I don’t know about all these things. And it might actually stop me from even engaging in some,… This is very confusing. Tony, what do I do?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 18:21
Exactly! Rhea, you’re right on point. You don’t have to know all that stuff. Because you’re launching your program with simple wills. And what do we know about wills? Everybody knows what wills are. I say the word wills. Everybody knows what I mean. Everybody knows they need a will. And everybody knows how wills work. That makes it easy to open the conversation. It’s easy for your donors because they know what you’re talking about. They know they need one.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 18:50
They know how it works. And it’s easy for you and for your staff because you don’t have to train your staff to learn the nuances of the difference between charitable gift annuities, and charitable remainder trusts. It’s totally all that jargon, all those cracks and credits, and all those acronyms are off the table. We’re launching with simple gifts in wills. Would you consider including us in your will? So now in the out years, you know Rhea, if a program wants to expand it to other methods of Planned Giving, sure! Those are valuable, I’m not denigrating those. I’m saying they’re not the place to start. You’re not the place to launch your Planned Giving Program. Start with the simple basic wills. And if you choose to go further in future years, then great, but take comfort knowing that you never have to.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 19:48
25 years from now, your Planned Giving Program can still be promoting only gifts in wills, and charitable bequests, and you’re going to capture the vast majority of gifts that you would have gotten if you had expanded because by far, wills are the most popular planned gift. It’s at least 75% of all the gifts in any planned giving program at a minimum. And I’ve seen as high as 90%. So, start with wills and know that if you don’t want to, you’ll never have to go any further.
RHEA WONG 20:22
Yeah, that’s actually really…
TONY MARTIGNETTI 20:25
I hope comforting is the perfect word. I was just gonna say. I hope it’s comforting.
RHEA WONG 20:29
Yeah, it is comforting because I started to in researching this episode, I started going down the rabbit hole of all of the different complicated inheritable annuities, etc., and my head started doing so when I was like, I don’t know about any of this stuff.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 20:42
You don’t need to.
RHEA WONG 20:45
Anything that occurs to me, is such a fun idea. So if I’m a person who’s thinking about my will, my number one thing is going to be I want to make sure I’m taking care of my children, my grandchildren, my descendants, and so forth. So it obviously speaks to identifying and knowing your donor base and likes maybe having a conversation with the people who don’t have children. Would you agree?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 21:08
They can be very good prospects. Yes, folks who don’t have children. But that’s the minority of partners and couples. So what I always say is, look, your family comes first. No question about that. But can you carve out something for our work? It can be a small outright, a small dollar amount, or a small percentage, and it’d be 5%.
RHEA WONG 21:29
What are some of the obstacles that you’ve seen in starting a Planned Giving Program? I think we mentioned a couple of these ideas that you have to have a fully fleshed-out program. This idea that it’s really complicated. Anything else is standing in the way of people just starting?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 21:45
Yeah, there’s a death word. I think it’s a conversation about death. And I think what adequately debunked that myth, right? That is a conversation about life. So exactly the opposite of death. There are folks that think it’s too expensive. They spend a lot of money. Not true. Just identify your committed loyal donors, and stratify them as top and tier 2. Start the conversations with the top. And then start the digital or print marketing with tier 2, not great expense. And you might say marketing is expensive. Yeah, direct mail is expensive.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 22:17
Then use digital. Talk to folks at your events, to drop a couple of sentences into your speaking remarks at your events. We’re focused on the long term, and how important our work is to the community for the long term. As we’re focusing, we’re asking people to include us in their will. It’s so simple for you to do. And if you want to, if you want a little more information, you could talk to Rhea at the end of our dinner. And Rhea, you’re not going to have a technical rules conversation with anybody.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 22:50
Because if technical questions come up, you’re going to just refer the people to their attorneys,. You’re going to be having a conversation about what you have in common with those folks. The nonprofit’s work, its sustainability, how important that work is in the community, and how valuable a gift in someone’s will be for that long term for that sustainability. That’s the conversation you’re going to have with folks. For anything technical, you politely refer them to their attorney because you’re the expert in the work, and how important sustainability is. And you know that you have it in common because you’re talking to committed loyal donors.
RHEA WONG 23:30
And what occurs to me too, is this could be a very attractive proposition for somebody who may not be a major giver today, but someone who might want to have a bigger impact and allows them to make a substantial gift without having the cash in hand today for everyday people.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 23:51
For everyday people, this is their way to make their ultimate gift. Your nonprofit, a lot of those folks very well would have liked to make their ultimate gift while they’re living. A lot of folks are concerned about outliving their assets. That’s the greatest fear for folks in their 70s, 80s, or 90s. That they’ll run out of money. Right? So to allay that fear, they make their ultimate gift in their will. And that’s we’re very grateful for what they do.
RHEA WONG 24:18
Let me ask you about the messenger because I actually just remembered myself as a 26-year-old ED. I looked young. I was young. And I just can’t see a world in which a young ED could talk to my 60-something donors in a way that actually felt very authentic. So just like the messenger matter?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 24:41
Not a lot. If there’s someone on your board that you can draw from or if there’s an older staff member, maybe closer in age, I don’t think that’s a big obstacle. You have the gravitas even as a 26-year-old CEO, and Executive Director behind you because you have that position, and the person you’re talking to knows that it’s your responsibility. Do fundraising for the short term, the midterm, and the long term. Look, the first conversation going to be a little difficult. Sure!
TONY MARTIGNETTI 25:12
But isn’t everything in life that’s new difficult, right? If you haven’t run for a year, and you go out for a run, congratulations! You got started but can be a hard run. But your fifth run is going to be a lot easier than your first through fourth runs. And so it is with your planned giving conversations, but they’ll get easier. And no one is going to slap you in the face. No one’s going to hang up the phone on you. I’ve been doing this for 26 years. I’ve never been slapped in the face. I had someone hang up on me.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 25:39
But that was a girlfriend that had nothing to do with planned giving. So I have been hung up on but not in a planned giving context. So people are not going to be rude. And you know what, when you get skilled at it, they’re going to be touched. Because you message it in a way that’s honoring all the support that they’ve given you for those 10 or 20 or 30 years. You’re honoring that. You’re recognizing that. And you’re offering a way for them to just extend that giving that they’ve been doing for so long. And in the process, respecting all that support that they’ve done.
RHEA WONG 26:18
Tony, thank you so much for this. It sounded like such a scary, intimidating thing. But now you’re helping me reframe it. Actually, this is a really good giving vehicle, especially for the everyday folks who are not super wealthy, and who are not going to be able to write you a five or six-figure gift right now. But we’ll certainly have assets at some point that they might want to leave to you.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 26:43
Yeah! And it is ideal for folks of modest means. Those folks, those small-dollar donors, this is a way that they can make that ultimate gift. And you have so many more small-dollar donors than you do major donors. So look how much bigger your pipeline is when you recognize that this is not only for your major donor.
RHEA WONG 27:04
That is really helpful. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you think it’s important for people to know about planned giving programs?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 27:11
Let me tell you that I’m probably the only lawyer who will say that you don’t need a lawyer. Just a reminder about that. And other goes back to your question about what keeps people away. They feel that they need expertise on their board, or on their staff. And you just need to know your mission, and how important its sustainability is in your community. I think we’ve covered it quite well. You were well prepared. You are over-prepared because you learned about gift annuities and charitable remainders.
RHEA WONG 27:41
This has been great. So where can folks learn more about it, I know you have an accelerator program, which is great, and I know that you’re about to close it. But will you open it again later this year?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 27:50
Not this year, but in early 2024. So if you want to learn more, there are a couple of different ways. Just go to plannedgivingaccelerator.com. And as you said, the next class is going to begin before folks hear this podcast. But that’s fine. There’ll be another class. It won’t be this year, most likely. So go to plannedgivingaccelerator.com. You can join the email list there.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 28:17
Of course, in the meantime, I’m sending what I think is valuable information about planned giving, generally. And then when we begin to promotion for the next year. You’ll be on the list and you’ll know about it. I also host a podcast. I have Tony Martignetti at nonprofit radio if that’s of interest to you. It’s not just planned giving. And it’s not just fundraising. It’s all things that I think small and midsize shops are struggling with. And you can learn about the podcast at tonymartignetti.com.
RHEA WONG 28:46
Tony, let me ask you this way you frame this up for us. It seems really simple. Anybody can do it. Why do people hire you? What do you do for folks?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 28:53
I’m chronically underemployed and unemployed. So that is a problem. You’re you’ve hit the nail on the head. No, I’m doing fine. Now, I teach this course, the planned giving accelerator course. So folks join that. And you have to pay to be a member, of course, and I do retainer-based planned giving consulting for bigger organizations that do decide to go beyond charitable bequest.
HEA WONG 29:16
Tony but to get started, look into his accelerator. Look into his content. I’m sure it’ll give you plenty to start with. Is that right?
TONY MARTIGNETTI 29:30
That is right. That’s a great place to start. Absolutely, you don’t need that expertise. Absolutely, everything you said.
RHEA WONG 29:39
Tony, thank you so much. And we will make sure to put all of your information in the show notes for people to connect with you via LinkedIn to see your content and certainly to check out your accelerator. Thank you so much. This has been really helpful.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 29:48
Rhea, thank you and I’m glad I gave you comfort around planned giving.
RHEA WONG 29:52
I only talked about setting up with everybody now.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 29:58
That’s it. I’m the evangelist for planned giving.
RHEA WONG 30:00
You are. Yeah, actually, I might invite you to come in guest speaker by accelerator so we can get more people on that planned giving free.
TONY MARTIGNETTI 30:09
I would love to do that. I’m looking for all the people who are interested in planned giving. I’d love to. That will be very thoughtful. Thank you.
RHEA WONG 30:17
Thanks so much. Take care.
—
Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nonprofitlowdown/support
