Fundraising can feel transactional, manipulative, and just plain icky. But it doesn’t have to be that way. As donor-turned-expert Lisa Greer explains, with authentic connection and a “ditch the pitch” mindset, fundraising can actually feel human.
Lisa gets what it’s like to be on the receiving end of clumsy asks and ill-informed wealth screens. After an awkward start to her own philanthropy journey, she vowed to revolutionize the donor experience.
In this candid conversation, we discuss:
- Why donors aren’t some strange “other” species
- The power of self-aware storytelling
- Ditching disingenuous pitches
- How to navigate the money
Lisa argues we need a philanthropy revolution to fix this – one centered around trust, transparency, and treating donors as partners instead of ATM machines.
“I’m helping organizations change the way they do things based on how a donor hears things and how a donor interprets things.” – Lisa Greer
The bottom line? We have to get over our own discomfort with wealth and get curious about donors as individuals – what matters to them and why they give as they do.
To hear more of Lisa’s straight-talk around transforming nonprofit fundraising, have a listen to the full episode and share it with someone who needs a refresh!
Important Links
Book: Philanthropy Revolution: How to Inspire Donors, Build Relationships, and Make a Difference by Lisa Greer: https://www.lisagreer.com/book
Preorder: The Fundraiser’s Handbook: A Guide to Maximizing Donations, Retaining Donors, and Saving the Giving Sector for Good by Lisa Greer: https://www.amazon.com/Fundraisers-Handbook-Maximizing-Donations-Retaining/dp/1939096154
Blog: https://philanthropy451.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisazgreer/
X:https://x.com/lisazgreer
Episode Transcript
RHEA 0:00
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong.
Hey podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown.
Today, I am talking about the philanthropy revolution with Lisa Greer. She is a philanthropist, bestselling author of the philanthropy revolution, changemaker, advisor, and passionate about the nonprofit space.
So Lisa, welcome to the show.
LISA 0:30
Thank you so much. It’s so great to be here.
RHEA 0:32
[00:00:32] Rhea Wong: Before we jump into the details, ’cause you and I have so many things to talk about, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background in philanthropy and really what inspired you to write the philanthropy revolution, which by the way.
I read before you and I had met and I was a, bit of a super fan. Really exciting that we get to chat today.
LISA 0:48
Thank you. So as you read in the book and maybe some of the people on have not I grew up as a basically average kind of middle class person living in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles.
as a kid, we really didn’t use the word philanthropy, it wouldn’t have been used in our house at all. Because that sounded like. People with attitude and people who just weren’t us, that kind of thing. So that wasn’t even used. our family, I would call them philanthropic. We gave, but it was really local things PTA.
And I remember doing like a pen pal thing for care, because people in Africa or something when I was little, but it was really not a piece of our life. You do good things through Girl Scouts, whatever. When I was in college, we did things through my sorority, but it was all very vague.
And like you just send the money off somewhere and that kind of thing, unless it was hyper local, like it was Girl Scouts. my husband grew up in a very similar way in Toronto. And basically about 12 years ago, after Really being the volunteer for things because people would I would say I want to get involved and people would say to me that’s lovely honey and pat me on the head and say that you can volunteer for this because we didn’t have enough money for that kind of stuff.
I have five kids I was most of the time we were, dealing with our family and I we were always working both of us, and about now about 1012 years ago. The company that my husband had started about 10 years before that went public had a very successful public offering and to give you an idea of the timeframe, the exact same day we went out was the same, went public was the same day that Tesla went out.
So my husband would actually see him at all of these meetings back and forth because they were all meeting with the same people. I had a business, I’m a serial entrepreneur, but as is my husband, but I also worked for the studios for a long time. And set up different businesses within Universal Studios and NBC and the music business and various things.
but it was always work, and, you give what you can give. And like I said, most of the time it was more volunteer. And then I had a business in the fertility business that I had started that was helping people create families and it was going well.
I sold that, the company went public, he left, and all of a sudden we found out that we were, realized that. We were, embarking on this new life. And what was that going to be? And our biggest concern was that our kids not grow up to be jerks. That was, it’s we just kept talking to these attorneys and everything.
Just tell us how to do it so that we can make sure that our kids are not like that, but the very first thing that happened was it was about 10 days before the IPO happen. My husband has Crohn’s disease which he’d had since he was about 11. And it was, I was very nervous about him traveling and going through all of this because it can be set off from stress.
but we had one day they told us. Before I wouldn’t see him until it either went public or it didn’t like you don’t know until it actually happens and he was going to go off on this plane and go all over the place. And in 10 days, we would know. So we had this 1 day. It was quiet. I think the kids were taking a nap or something.
And we were both really nervous. I was pretty shaky and making sure that what was this new life going to be? And how do we make sure that we say ourselves? I said, you know what we can do to help with this? Let’s figure out where we want our first gift to be. And I have to say that I thought until a couple of years into this, that everybody who was faced with a windfall of money would say that.
I just thought everybody gave. And I was very surprised to find that was not the case. Somebody had told me about donor advice funds, which is why I’m a big proponent of those because I got involved really early and it worked for us. As our initial kind of foray into this, but I said let’s each pick something that we want to do that’s really big.
I don’t think I called it a major gift. I think I said a big donation, something like that, because I didn’t know the parlance at that point. I said, what would you want to do? Let’s each pick something. We have enough, if this happens in 10 days, then what do we want to do?
And so Josh said well, I want to do something that helps with Crohn’s disease to make sure that nobody has to go through what I went through and I want to find out where the best research is being done to figure out what the genetic component is that makes all these people have this terrible disease.
And I said, Great. Where do you want to do that? And I said, Why don’t we just do it at Cedar Sinai or a hospital down the street where you had all your surgeries? And he said, No, I don’t think they do research. So let’s just do Stanford. I said that’s great. I can talk to them, but I think we should start locally and see what we find out.
He says, Fine. I’m done for 10 days. You go figure it out. Okay. he says, as long as it’s going to have an impact, I think he might have used that word. And then he said, What do you want to do? And I was the incoming chair of our board at Temple Emanuel in Beverly Hills. we had a capital campaign going on again.
I didn’t know the word was capital campaign, but I knew that we had needed a million dollars to finish it off it was under construction, but we needed the sex of this million dollars and there was a matching thing that happened at the end. And so I said, I want to give them the final million dollars before I take over as president.
I think that would be really great as chair. and he said, okay, are you sure you want to do that? That’s kind of a big thing. And, then there’s going to be like a building involved. And do you want to be that person? And I said, yeah, my father had, when I was about 12, I remember he, and he died when I was pretty young, but he took me to a synagogue here in Los Angeles that he had been to and showed me a plaque where his father’s name was on it because his dad had been the head of the board.
I remember how proud he was. And I thought, I got to do this like for my dad. I think this is the right thing to do. So I picked up the phone and I called him I said to Josh, You know what? We can actually tell someone about this right now.
We can’t tell anybody on the Chrome side because we don’t know who we’re doing it with yet, but I can call right now and just say, we’re going to give you the million dollars if this happens. I called my friend who was a senior rabbi there. she knew all about the IPO. We were very close.
And I said, I just want to let you know that Josh and I have just had this conversation and we’ve decided that if this thing happens in 10 days, we’re going to give you the final million dollars. I thought I was going to hear like publishers clearing house at the door thing that there was gonna be balloons and stuff and people screaming and nothing it was crickets like absolute silence.
And I said, I don’t. Hello are you there. And she said yes but I don’t know what to say. And I said, Oh well, I guess you could say thank you. And remember, I’d never thought those words would come out of my mouth in my entire life. she said, I don’t know if I can say thank you, because I didn’t make an ask.
And it was at that moment that it was like I became part of a bad movie or something. I was like, where am I in this place where people don’t just say thank you? And It doesn’t work like that. I don’t understand. And then it got a little worse when she hung up the phone, didn’t say thank you. We both went uh, hung up the phone. Josh is looking at me like, why are you so white? What’s going on? And the phone rings again. And she says, can I talk to Josh? And he’s 10 feet away from me. And I said, okay, so I give him the phone and I figured she’s just going to say thank you to him, I guess, And instead she said, are you aware of what your wife is doing?
it was pretty unbelievable. Both of us were just absolutely shocked. And she’s a staunch feminist. And I just said I don’t understand. Like, how can this be? anD it ended, and he said, okay, and he hung up the phone, and that was that. Yes, I still gave the million dollars.
Yes, I still was involved, but it did definitely affect my relationship, I think, with the synagogue, and I was very wary of how they did things, but I also felt like is this normal? Did these kinds of things happen elsewhere? And over the years as we did the other donations and got more involved in this and learned the language, I realized that that was in no way unusual, maybe the exact pieces of what went together, but that this is something that happens all the time, often in various different extremes in an industry that, has a million and a half organizations in it, that is the third largest non government employer in the country.
this stuff is happening. And I’ve talked to people in other parts of the world, and it happens there too. And I thought, who came up with these crazy rules and instructions? And why can’t people just say, thank you? I gave a few unsolicited gifts along the way, and people got really confused. Like they weren’t sure, like they talked to me, like I was a criminal, like what, who are you?
I don’t know. I heard about your organization. I saw a website. I sent you money and they couldn’t deal with it. I thought this is really strange. after a while, I realized, you know what? I don’t need to work. somebody who is in a position of not needing to work who’s aware of this stuff needs to.
Let people know how it feels to be a donor in this world. And then I thought no, somebody else must be writing books and stuff talking about how the donor feels. And I found out nobody was I talked to a bunch of donors. I’m like, why don’t you talk about it? You’ve been giving for years.
And they said. It’s easier to just hang up the phone on the person and not give to them. I said, but then you can’t change anything. It’s just going to keep going on this crazy way. I decided I became that person and it’s been, I have to say, glorious. It’s been wonderful because I’m helping organizations change the way they do things based on how a donor hears things and how a donor interprets things.
I did find out that, like I said, my experience is not. that unusual. every donor who I’ve ever spoken to has had, including a number of fundraisers, has had some quirky but weird and off putting experience when they’ve been trying to give.
RHEA 8:46
Okay. So much to unpack here. Cause I’m just fascinated.
Often, and I work with fundraisers and I think one of the things that I’m really bullish on that I talk about all the time is not othering. the donor, right? especially in the non profit space, we have this tendency to think of like rich people as different than us, right? that somehow like they’re different, they think differently, they act differently, and we either have to like kowtow to them or like we have to hold them at an arm’s length because they might try to tell us what to do.
I guess the question here is that your perception? And if so, like, how are you addressing that? Because my perspective is We’re all just people. and some people are good people and other people are not so good people, but money only amplifies what you already are.
But if you’re weird about the money, you don’t see the person.
LISA 9:31
it’s great hearing you say that because it’s exactly how I feel. interesting because I kept. Feeling that sort of othering thing that people they didn’t know what to make of me.
That’s what it was. It was like they either are being pandering, or they really think I’m an idiot. And so they’re trying to get money out of me would think that I don’t realize what they’re doing or whatever it was. I do think it’s exactly what you said that I think people feel like they just don’t understand this donor, this big, weird thing from another universe.
my husband’s a member of the Aspen Institute, and they had spent some time reading Frederick Douglass stuff. Frederick Douglass, the people in the North brought him there to say, This is what a black person looks like. So they wouldn’t think it’s like something that they’ve never heard of before.
and obviously, it was very successful. And he went from home to home and did these like salons, and I actually do a lot of salons myself. I decided that I would not to try and do the same thing but based on what he did and that it was successful that, you know what, somebody needs to get out there.
And one day I’m going to bring some other donors and friends to and say, we’re not scary. We’re just regular people. I love the way you said that it’s amplified who we are without changing who we are and that. We’re not idiots, and we’re not scary.
are there a few scary donors? Sure. Are there a few scary fundraisers? Sure. Are there a few scary teachers? Yeah. But most of us are normal human beings who really have this communication Break. I want to call it just this off putting weird communication thing that happens between the two of you.
And it’s hard to do. And I’ve asked lots of donors, lots of fundraisers, like, why is that? unfortunately, some of them have told me that they were told to treat donors that way. Yeah. Really uncomfortable.
RHEA 10:59
Yeah. And I have a theory and I’d love your perspective on it too. I think it’s really couched in our own relationship to money and what it means to us.
if you’re coming from a place, particularly if maybe you had modest circumstances coming up, you attach so much meaning to money. Maybe you’re uncomfortable with money. Maybe there’s some trauma associated with money. And so because you make the money mean so much that stands in the way of true human connection, because in your mind, you’re just like, okay, if this person has more money, somehow the, I don’t know, have more power over me or whatever it is.
from someone who was like, Middle class to significant capacity. Like what kind of money shifting did you have to do in your own mind about your relationship to money?
LISA 11:39
It was interesting. I’ll start off with what my kids did.
I had two kids in their 20s and one was a teenager at that point. and we’ve always been, I would say involved in social justice from a mindset, not as much, for money, but, we went on our walks for raising money for whatever and that kind of thing.
And they were incredibly uncomfortable with money to the point where they didn’t want it. They wanted it to go away. And that was. really shocking to me. that it’s like the complete absolute flip side of that whole thing. You don’t want people to be a jerk, but to just say I just wanted to not be here.
So both of my older kids have been involved in resource generation, which you’re probably familiar with. and there are people there who think that, but there’s also a lot of people who are like, let’s do really good work with this. And my son actually facilitates one of their practice groups one of their key areas indigenous people, that was weird for Josh and I to see that was like, opened our eyes. I don’t understand that. Can you explain that? The biggest thing that happened to me is people pandering to us, people saying things like, I love your glasses.
I love your this. I love your that. And I thought if I was just, a person you met at the liquor store, whatever at school, would you really say that to me? It was very uncomfortable for me. and my husband said I was really naive because he thought it got to this point where I would basically, I think a lot of donors feel this where you don’t trust anything that the fundraiser says to you.
And that was really uncomfortable. I wanted to get to know these people. And it was only recently where I also learned that fundraisers are told not to talk about themselves. And I can’t sit with somebody, and I suspect you’re the same way. And not ask them anything about themselves. I just can’t do that.
but then they didn’t want to tell me and I thought, why? then I found out they’ve actually been instructed to not tell me about themselves. As much as I think that the concept is that donors are these. Scary, outsider, weird people or something Just another group of people that is that you can’t really understand and you shouldn’t get too close to. It was very strange to hear that I couldn’t treat the fundraiser like a human being as well. I still do this all the time, and I find that, especially newer fundraisers.
They’re really shocked when I say, really, tell me about yourself. Tell me where you grew up. Tell me whatever. Now I can say this. I know you might’ve been told not to talk about yourself, but I, as a donor, think it’s important that we get to know each other on a relationship kind of level, as opposed to this transactional thing, because otherwise you’re just waiting for the person to ask you for money.
And so we’ll have a conversation. And I keep, and you keep saying yourself. Is this fake? Is it real? Is it fake? Is it real? And the reason people say I’m naive is I do actually think half the time that, at least, that it is a real conversation, unless I have a reason not to believe it. I’m developing a relationship here.
This is really nice. And then when they asked me for money at the very end, and if I say gee, I’m not sure, and I watch their face drop, and they get ready to leave. I just told someone this the other day. I said, do you realize when you asked me that way, after having a lovely conversation, and then you said at the end, This is somebody I counsel a lot.
I said, do you realize that I then lose all belief that was a real conversation? It becomes like that was just a method to get me to where you wanted to get me. I said to this woman, I know you’re real. I know that was an authentic conversation, but it instantly hits me.
It’s like a knife hit me that said Nope. Don’t think that was real because somebody is actually BSing you again, just trying to get money out of you.
RHEA 14:34
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much to unpack here. in my own personal fundraising, like I was never properly taught how to fundraise. So I just did what I do.
And it was successful, most of the time, some of the time it wasn’t, right? But I approached it like a human being I’m just a person. You’re just a person. I’m doing this thing. If you want to do this thing together, let’s do this thing. And it actually ended up being successful. And so I’m on this single woman mission to ditch the pitch because when I started to get fundraising training, it just didn’t feel right to me.
Like you have to have a pitch to go in. I was like, I don’t talk like that. I don’t want people to talk to me like that. Why are we being trained to do this thing? That feels so unnatural.
LISA 15:08
I totally agree. And ditch the pitch. I hope I can. Can I use that? Yeah, please
RHEA 15:12
ditch the pitch. Hashtag all ditch the pitch.
LISA 15:17
conversation, right? It is a conversation. And then you have to get, so if you ditch the pitch. I have had some people where I’ve said, just say what you think and what you feel. And the most important, a lot of people say to me, I’m, I am uncomfortable asking about money, which then makes me think, but you’re a fundraiser, but okay, that seems a little strange to me.
But what I’ve said to them, and I’m actually about to write an article on this is that if you actually develop a relationship with somebody and. Not just who you are, but why are you in this very difficult job? Why are you working for this organization? showing that you have a passion for this particular cause.
I always say, if you’re a fundraiser, and you’re in a fundraising position, and you don’t have passion about what the organization does, then you shouldn’t be in that position. But when I find out if someone’s really passionate, they’re able to describe this with me. In fact, we’re going, I’m doing a conference next week for an organization that has, hundreds of organizations under them or with them that are all based on people who really don’t know about fundraising, but who have a relative or a child in some cases, who’s had some very rare disease.
so this is where they all come together and learn about fundraising I don’t think they have to play the games. I think they just say, this is, really heartfelt. This is what I am. This is how I got into this. This is important. This is going to save lives of just not my kid, but other people than most donors.
And I truly believe this. I’d love to hear if you do, but I think most donors at that point, if you’ve had enough in a conversation, you won’t have to ask for money as a fundraiser because the donor will say, Oh, my gosh, how can I help? I’ve told that idea to a number of people. And they’re like, but that’s so easy.
I don’t know if I could dip that works that way. Just try it. It works. Yeah.
RHEA 16:44
But let’s go back. Cause actually I’ve also been in the experience too, of developing the relationship and then I get. friend zoned. I’ve developed a relationship so much that the donor actually just thinks that we’re like, we’re just friends.
And then it becomes now I feel like I can’t ask because we’ve developed this relationship where it’s like friendly. So I’m curious about your thoughts on that. Cause I think there’s a fine balance here. Like you don’t want to make it super transactional. Like I’m listening to you in order to get the gift, right?
You do want to be genuine, but on the other hand. You are ultimately there to close a gift, right? how do you manage that tension?
LISA 17:16
Yeah, it’s very interesting. You said that because I got an email last night from a friend of mine out of the country who I had that conversation with and so she would say this is my job.
Do you think you could contribute to this thing and the conversation? Cause we became friends. I don’t even think I, I guess she approached me as a fundraiser, but it also just seemed like a really nice person. I’ve been to her home and whatever. she was talking the other day and she said, I need to ask you for money.
And it was pretty quick. It wasn’t like a, it was like, hi, how are you? Can you give, and it was a large amount of money, way more than I’ve ever given before to any of her organizations, which usually, you know, modest, but decent sized gifts. I had that feeling again and I said this is really awkward and she knew it because we’ve become friends at this point so she sent an email the other day and she said look I’ve been staying away for a while I felt really badly about all of this you know can we have a conversation And can you join back in some of our activities and here’s some of the things we’re doing.
And if you say no, so I can tell she was just as uncomfortable about it as I was. I think that what I’m going to tell her, because I actually was planning on calling her today. After looking at the email is that it’s okay to ask for money. I know that’s your business, but then you just need to say exactly what you just said, Ria, which is, this is my job.
I have an obligation. Someone said this to me the other day. I have an obligation in this, what I do for a living to ask you for money. If I don’t, like someone said to me the other day, I had a similar thing and they said it’s our job not to leave a stone unturned. So if we’re talking to you anyway, we really, it is our obligation to do it.
Totally cool. But the thing that I suggest people do to to make that. To make it work. I do this with a friend of mine at one of the big organizations that I’m on the board of and he and I made a deal several years ago because I literally said, I can’t tell when we’re having a friend conversation or a fundraising or you’re asking me for money.
he came up with this idea, which he was all the time now. And he said, here’s the deal. I will let you know when we set up the appointment if I’m going to be asking you for money or not, and I will be really clear about it and you’ll know is this a fundraiser one or is this not, and he’s done that now for gosh probably seven eight years.
It works perfectly. I know what I’m getting into. And then I’m agreeing to the meeting, and I know what’s going to happen and you can’t say, I want to talk to you about supporting our organization, because you can but you shouldn’t, because I don’t know what that means. Does that mean you want me to introduce you to somebody?
Does that mean you want some, maybe get somebody to give you something for your silent auction? Or does that mean money? then it could be any of those. And so you need to actually say, you don’t have to say I’m asking you for a gift. You can just say, I want to talk to you about financially supporting or if we’re good friends, I’m going to be asking you for money.
That’s what I’m going to be doing. Okay. And I know going in exactly what that conversation is going to be. And then nothing feels fake to me. It literally is that one little piece. Okay. Makes it all feel like, oh, I can be a friend and be a donor for you on your business side at the same time. Yeah.
RHEA 19:48
I love that so much because it really just goes to my core belief of this is just about trust, right?
You just treat people and you let them know which story they’re in. Cause I think exactly to your point, it’s wait, am I on this? Like fundraising story? Am I on our friend’s story? I love a dating analogy. I’m like, look, are we building something here? Or we just like. Playing around, which is fine, but just tell me which, which track
LISA 20:09
Yeah, exactly right. I think that’s it. It’s exactly what it is. And it’s really a, kind of an easy fix. I think. I wish everybody would do it. and people I have to say, some fundraisers I’ve talked to are really afraid to do that. . But it’s don’t be afraid. because that it automatically says. I, not only, not unless we trust each other, but that I’m authentic and I want to have an authentic relationship with you and I’m not going to play games. I’m just going to be real. And then you say, that is so great that you were up front with me. I trust you now.
And then I’m going to listen to what they say.
RHEA 20:36
That’s right. Can we talk about amounts? So I know this is a thing that like people get their panties in a bunch about like, how much do I ask for and dah. Thought, and I’d love your perspective on this is if you are unsure about the amount, like you haven’t.
Spend enough time in the relationship because once I get to know you, once I get to know what you’re passionate about, once I get to know the size of the gifts that you generally make, then I’ll have an idea of what to ask for. And sometimes I’ve seen situations in which people are pushed to ask for ridiculous sums.
I’m like, where did you get that? And I’m like wall screen told me that they could give a million dollars. I’m like but what did the conversations tell you? what are your perspectives about. Asking for a specific amount and what it takes to, to right size that
LISA 21:15
So excellent question.
So first of all, number one is do not trust wealth engine as your a hundred percent thing. Just do not.
RHEA 21:22
tell people this all the time. Like it is a data point. It is not the data point. And PS, especially for like people living in LA, New York, San Francisco, the wealth screens are totally off. It’s yeah, you have a million dollar house, but
LISA 21:33
You’re 100 percent right. And one thing I suggest is that everybody does a wealth screen on themselves and you will see if you want to do it on a friend, as long as they say it’s okay, you could do that. Mine was 95 percent wrong. There was almost nothing that was accurate.
And most of it was built on my own bio that they put a piece in of that, which I had written myself and that’s coming back to the, it just was crazy. I really think that is damaging and I think the trust in those numbers as being like you said the only data point is ridiculous.
a lot of organizations, even there’s some consulting firms who will go through and do a capacity, study for you for an annual, large fundraising thing that you’re doing They will come back to you with the following information, and I’m sure most of you know this, not always, but a lot of them.
I see this a lot. One is what political party these people are in. The second one is what, and these are already people who are your people, who are engaged with the organization. They’ll tell you political party, political donations, and value of your home. And you already talked about the value of your home thing, which just doesn’t mean anything.
it’s crazy. It might mean. How you can manipulate money to make it look like you have more money, it can also mean, it just isn’t enough, it isn’t at all enough, but the political party thing drives me crazy because if they’re already engaged with your organization who cares what their political party is, like why is that important information to decide how much you’re going to ask them for, and then the amount that they gave to political.
campaigns is capped. So that doesn’t make any sense either. that’s why I love some of these other companies. MarketSmart is one that it’s who introduced us and who really look at other kinds of things about that person and look at them as a whole person. I think it’s crazy.
I also have had that experience. There’s one in the book about me giving a certain amount. a, let’s say I did a five figure gift for a few years, and then was asked for a seven figure gift immediately afterwards. And I thought, like, did I do something to make you think that, I think it’s exactly what you said.
I think somebody said, the well screen says blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or they gave this amount to somebody. Therefore, they’re going to give this to us, which kind of falls in the same category of let’s just call, the Gates Foundation and tell them we’re wonderful and ask them for money.
there’s no meaning to my favorite way of figuring out if unless you’ve been told by somebody, you have to go get this money is, and really by checking that is to give somebody a menu of different kinds of things that they can give. And you say, what are these kinds?
And they did this by the way, at Cedar Sinai, when we gave our money. To try and point out to us that we didn’t have enough money because they didn’t believe that we didn’t have enough money to give them because we weren’t in well screens yet because we were new. They said, and they were trying to have me say, Oh, and instead I said, Okay, there’s and so it’s like you could do this for this and this for this and this for this money.
And it was a wide range, and I got to say, Yeah, okay, any of these would be fine or this sounds the most interesting. And that’s some really good guidance, if you show that to people like what and if the person says. something and it was like, 10 million dollars or whatever.
I’d say, hey, that’s just not my thing. I don’t give that much. And I would say that. that was that went over the top. And so let’s go look and you can even say, when you give to organizations, are you giving in this range or that range? Totally cool to ask me that.
I have no problem with that because you know why? That’s them asking to understand me better. And so they get points just for asking that question because it shows it. I want to have a relationship with you. I want authenticity in this relationship.
RHEA 24:29
because we talk a lot about building relationships with donors.
And I think, we can talk about statistically how bad our retention rates are. That’s a whole other topic. What I found, especially in areas like New York, San Francisco, LA is that with donors, they have been, they’ve become cynical, right? Because I think in many ways, they have felt used and abused, let’s say.
for the fundraiser, who’s out here really wanting to build an authentic relationship, how do you pierce the veil of cynicism, which I don’t blame donors for, because they have been networked to death and manipulated. if I’m coming with this understanding of I’m here to build a relationship, I’m here to build trust, I’m here to be authentic and straightforward, but I’m being held in arms.
Length because my donor has been mistreated so many times, like what does one do
LISA 25:13
Yeah, I think the first thing to do if you’ve got somebody like that is, and I think most donors have some feeling of that. It’s just there. There’s a whole spectrum, right? But find somebody that you have in common.
it’s really what we do on social media all the time, right? Find somebody that you have in common that will automatically offset. it won’t completely upset, but it will lessen that sort of Oh, no, stay away from me kind of thing. Because there’s always as well. Okay. If you’re friends with whoever, or I could say, let’s say you don’t find somebody in common as a contact, but that they were at some event and you’re like, Hey, you know what?
I was at that event too. I was involved or I have another donor who was there and said, it was great. Tell me about that event. And that tells that person that. A, you’ve done your homework. I can’t stand when somebody comes to me and has done hasn’t done the homework and literally I’ve had fundraisers say, so where’s your money from, which is really like that does not a great way to start a conversation.
But where they really don’t know anything about me as a person, and the more that you want to know about that person. Some people say to me. I don’t wanna do that because it’s weird to do a a Google search on somebody. It’s but you can’t get into a college without someone doing a Google search on you now.
That’s just part of what people do. So just don’t worry about it. I expect that a fundraiser who’s approaching me knows something about me, know something about the kinds of things I give to, and ideally extra points if you know somebody in common. So I think that will offset.
That issue and then if you start off and say, I want to talk to and this will not be about fundraising and this is great. If you say, I’m not going to ask you for money. I just want to talk to you about our organization and let you know about it and see how you feel about some things that we do I will go into the meeting. And I will be waiting to see can they actually honor what they just said, or are they just not gonna be able to help themselves and they’re gonna ask me for money. And when I get up at the end of it, or end it on zoom or whatever, and they haven’t asked me for money, then I’m good.
Then I am like, then all of a sudden I feel like, okay. They told me what they were going to do or what they were not going to do. They honored that. We had a nice conversation and let’s go have the next meeting and let’s talk some more about it. I don’t think they’re tricks, but they’re little things that you can do to offset that issue.
RHEA 27:04
the things that I know that you are passionate about, I read your blog post on it and I completely agree is that our lack of patience. Is really leaving money on the table and I think in part it’s, we’re under these pressures and especially if you have a board, it’s like you need to bring in the money.
We rush the relationship. We rush the conversation. We ask too early or in some cases we ask too late. But I think. When we get into this like transactional thing of okay, I’m going to have a conversation with Lisa and then I’m going to convert it into a gift. It really gets us into this transactional mindset.
I’m just curious, like your thoughts about taking time with relationships.
LISA 27:38
Yeah. So that is a really big issue that the ask for money, I think has to be obviously has to be done at an appropriate time. I think that it’s if you have the relationship, I do believe you’ll know when it’s appropriate.
But if you have a real relationship, you can be honest and you can just ask, is this time to ask you for money? the problem that we have is that a lot of people are being sent in by their boards, by their superiors, by whatever saying, just bring back the check, which drives me up a wall. if you do that, And a lot of people do and you can’t sometimes you just can’t help it because that’s your boss and you’ve got to do what they say and or that’s the board and I’ve have. I’ve sent my books to a number of boards and I’ve talked to a lot of boards because I want to make it clear to them that’s not healthy that’s not healthy for your organization.
And if you need the money right now then it just, it doesn’t even show that you have a plan of being, even in some ways sustainable in the future. It sounds like, oh no, it sounds I want to get you into this scam really fast, even though I’m not suggesting that any of these nonprofits or scams.
That’s what it feels like. It feels like I need the money and I need it now. And the thing that I find really interesting is that I didn’t realize that fundraisers think the donors. Know when they give once they are expected to give annually. I never knew that. No one ever told me that. I had to learn it from getting behind the scenes here.
And I’m telling you that most donors have no idea. they also don’t know. And this is the really unfortunate part is that you’re supposed to give more every year. You’re supposed to get the same amount and then more. Nobody tells you those rules. And that’s why I have a book coming out now and another one I’m starting to write called the Donors Handbook.
So donors know what are the rules you don’t have to abide by them, but you should at least know what are these fundraisers being told at their organizations. And so when someone says that’s our annual fund, I never had anyone explain to me what an annual fund was, other than that’s a way of me asking you for money more often.
I don’t know what those different things are. but people are really shocked when I tell them that you don’t. Realize like I think I gave to you, I gave you money and the next year someone says, this is my favorite one. This happens all the time. We want to see if you could increase your annual gift.
And that has that’s a whole lot to unpack just that statement because I never said I was giving you an annual gift. I didn’t know I was supposed to give you an annual gift. And now you’re asking me to increase something that I didn’t even say it was going to do. And I get asked that a lot, I used to just say, that’s a really crazy thing to say now I’ll say back to them you know what, let’s talk about what you just said to me because it doesn’t work.
I do think that this idea of you have to give and give now and you’re expected to give every year and by the way, if you don’t give more. You’re disappointing me. And a lot of times I can tell that a fundraiser is disappointed because I gave them the same amount the next year. I think that’s just cruel, actually.
I think that’s a real problem with our industry. And I think it’s that kind of attitude that makes people not want to give again to the same organization.
[00:30:08] Rhea Wong: let us talk about upgrading because that is the idea behind it of you’re constantly stewarding your donors to upgrade.
when is it appropriate to consider an upgrade? Because the thing that we also know is that many times people will give an introductory gift just to see what you do with it. And then. If you steward it properly, then they’re open for further conversation.
curious about your perspective there.
LISA 30:27
Yeah, they will. But what do you do when somebody gives you a million dollars as an unsolicited first gift? Are you automatically expected to ask them for a million five the next year? It depends, right? And this is all about the donors. Aren’t this monolithic thing, right?
We’re all different. And so I think it has to do a lot with what those donations are. And yes, if you believe that person is checking you out with this smaller gift, Great, then you can just say, hey, want to show you what we’re doing some of these things. Do you think you might, would you be interested in helping us with some of these larger kinds of things where we actually have greater needs or we have some of these areas?
I think a lot of it is. Letting people know what are the pieces that are going to that you do in terms of your impact that resonate with that donor if that storytelling isn’t part of the conversation, then again, it’s just give me money and then somebody. Told me I forgot the term the other day.
It was something like shut up money that basically that people are just sometimes donors will just say, forget it. I’ll just give you money to go away money. That’s what they call it. Go away money.
RHEA 31:23
Oh, it’s funny. I call it mariachi money. Like when you give the mariachi band, like some money, just okay, please, go do that somewhere else.
LISA 31:30
I just can’t bear it anymore. Here you go. But who wants to have an organization that has donors who are giving them money to go to mariachi money or to go away. and if you have a relationship, if you’ve taken the time to have a relationship with that person, you will know when they’re starting to talk about go away money, because you’ll have that conversation.
So it’s really, Getting rid of this fear of money and we’re fear of these people that like, what are we going to do to you? Are we going to like hurt you? Like I said, there’s a few bad donors out there who do crazy things but most donors just, they just want to be partners with an organization and do good things in the world.
That’s really what I’m guessing 90 something percent of donors want to do. Yeah.
RHEA 32:03
Last question for me, cause we just have to wrap up, but I can talk to you forever. when I was fundraising in New York, there was like this real tit for tat sort of situation where it’s like my board member got their friend to give because they gave to their pet cause and I just was never really sure what to do with that because I’m like, Okay.
Is this person is giving because their board member, my board member gifted their cause. So that indicates to me that maybe they’re not really invested in the cause, but is there a potential for me to have a conversation, get them more invested? But I wasn’t really sure what to do with that.
What’s your perspective on that?
LISA 32:33
So just to make sure I got this right. So somebody brings a friend to, their table or whatever, and they make a motion. And then what do you do with that? Yeah. So I think that That’s a question. I think you say, look, is this something that you’re interested in learning more about?
By the way, I have been to a bunch of those. And obviously, and maybe 1 percent of the time has somebody even followed up with me. They just follow. The only follow up is give us more money. There’s never a follow up of. Hi, did you enjoy it? What did you like about it? Is this or is this a cause that you’re interested in?
Never ever happens. It just doesn’t happen. People don’t do that. The next thing I hear from them is give me more money. And that’s just not okay. I think a little easy reach out somehow saying and, you can send this as a bulk thing to people and just as a bulk email that has everybody’s individual name on their email.
You’re just, hey, thanks so much for coming. I literally have never gotten this. Thank you for coming to our event. We know that you were the guest of whatever and we’re so happy that they brought you. And we would love to know what you thought of the event. I’m guessing you go to a lot of them and we’d love to know what you thought and what you think about the cause now that you know a little bit about it.
Would you like to know more? That would be awesome. No one’s ever done it. It’s not to me.
RHEA 33:33
Yeah. And I think the thing that you’re signposting here, which I want everybody who’s listening to hear this is creating a mechanism for a dialogue because oftentimes as nonprofits, we’re just like throwing tennis balls into a vacuum cleaner, right?
We’re just like pitching it out and we’re not inviting a conversation. Greg Warner talked about this creating surveys. Sitting with your donors, asking questions, doing donor interviews, really genuinely coming from a place of curiosity and wanting to connect versus extraction and how can I pitch you on that thing?
There’s no magical combination of words that you can say that is going to. Induce somebody to donate.
LISA 34:07
That’s right. And that’s why I suggest that every nonprofit do a survey at least once a year to their database and ask them, how would they like to be referred to? Because people are particular about that.
And if you’re referring to them in a way that they don’t like to be referred to and all that your information, I get stuff all the time. To my email, but only inviting my husband, which is lovely. I got one yesterday. So that but how do you like to be referred to? And just you just answer.
It’s like a, if you do it on a free survey online on MailChimp or something. anyway, and then the other question you ask them is how do you like to be thanked? everybody knows how they want to be thanked, but there’s a spectrum. The other thing you want to ask them is how often do you want to be notified of our impact and the good work that we’re doing?
Most people would want to be notified not in an annual report once a year. Most people want to be notified as it happens or once a month or something like here’s some successes. A few different people I know have sent this out.
Maybe they added into some specific questions, maybe they have 10 questions. Quick and dirty, takes you three minutes to do it, because everybody knows how they want to be thanked, how they want to be referred to, how often they want to know about, impact. And what happens though on the side of this, from people who I know who’ve done this.
Is that the donors then will send them more money without them asking because they’re so shocked that somebody is asking me about me as an individual. And that is the way of using a mass market survey. Make someone feel like they’re an individual and it’s very effective. even I was surprised when I knew people would feel better about it, but I didn’t know that they would actually send money and.
One person sent an email to this friend of mine’s organization and said, I didn’t know you people cared. And that’s just it’s easy little things that you can do It really works.
RHEA 35:31
Yeah. And I, again, can I just emphasize this enough that you have to tell people what you did with their money.
tell them the impact it made before you even think about asking again, because then you just become the annoying teenager who only comes around when you need money and no one likes that
Lisa thank you so much for all that you’re doing.
Tell us a little bit about what’s up next for you. I know you mentioned you have a new book coming out. Where can folks learn about that? I know you have a great blog. Like, how can people connect with you if they want more Lisa in their life?
LISA 35:59
Sure. Well, Thank you. So my paperback came out in the UK. If any of you are on here from the UK, it came out last week Philanthropy Revolution.
It’ll, the paperback version can be pre ordered now on Amazon. In the U. S. And I have a new book coming out. You can’t preorder it quite yet, but soon called the fundraisers handbook, it’s meant to be specifically for fundraisers so that you can get basically get smart on some subject like donor buys funds very quickly and in a very kind of short to the point way.
And so that will be coming out in the spring. or midsummer. I think it is at this point. So I do have a blog. I write a thank you for referring to that. It’s called philanthropy for 51. It comes out every two weeks, and you can get to it by going just going to Lisa Greer calm, you can sign up right there on the front page.
And then we have a premium version that you can pay a small amount for and then we have a talk like. This kind of thing, but much more interactive. once a month. And then I also do a tip of the week that shows up on Twitter X and on LinkedIn which is just some very short little tip that will help people.
And so basically, it’s all about just trying to figure out how to help people. that’s what I do. And we would certainly love to talk to and see all of you.
RHEA 37:01
Fantastic. I’ll make sure to put all of the info in the show notes for folks listening on the podcast. But in the meantime, Lisa, thank you for all of the work that you’re doing.
I look forward to many more conversations. We’ll have to have you back on the pod when your book publishes. And if you’re in New York and do a salon, let me know.
LISA 37:14
Absolutely. We’ll do it. Thanks. Take care, everybody.
RHEA 37:16
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Thanks so much. Have a great day.
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