Itching to make your passion project a legendary nonprofit? It might not be as straightforward as you think.
I sat down with my gal pal Tiffany Allen, founder and president of Boss on a Budget, to spill some piping hot tea about the real deal when it comes to starting up your own nonprofit.
And let me tell ya…it ain’t as easy as just slapping a 501c3 on your passion project and watchin’ the donations roll in! We debunk some major myths around funding and control that trip up many founder executive directors. The key is building relationships, people! Donors are community too.
Tiffany shares straight truth about the pitfalls nonprofit newbies face, like lacking systems and support early on. We dish out some real talk around trusting others to carry the vision, finding the right “who’s” for your board, and avoiding burnout. Even us visionary bosses need help sometimes!
Overall, an enlightening convo you don’t wanna miss if you’re thinking about jumping into the nonprofit battlefield.
Tune in and leave a review!
Important Links:
https://www.youtube.com/@BossonaBudget
https://bossonabudget.lpages.co/purposeprofitsociety/
Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork – by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy – https://www.amazon.com/Who-Not-How-Accelerating-Teamwork-ebook/dp/B0867ZJ151
Episode Transcript
RHEA 00:00
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong.
Hey, podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown.
My guest is Tiffany Allen, the founder and president of Boss on a Budget. And today we are talking about startups and smaller nonprofits. So Tiffany, welcome to the show.
TIFFANY 00:26
Thank you. I’m excited to be here.
RHEA 00:28
Always excited to chat. So before we jump all up into it, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you decided to start Boss on a Budget.
TIFFANY 00:37
it’s weird how I got here, but it makes sense. So I started my first nonprofit with my church when I was in grad school for social work and it bombed, it failed, but I learned so much along the way.
And then fast forward, about 10 years later, I met someone who was launching a nonprofit and I helped him with the administrative side of all of that. And I began to fail again, because when you’re starting a nonprofit. You really don’t know what you don’t know, especially when you’re starting from scratch.
So I would get these letters in the mail and they’d be like, this is due or it’d be these pink letters from the state. And I just, I didn’t have it together. So I realized, you know what, I need to understand what I’m supposed to be doing so we can be on top of it. And at the same time, I was working for a company that consulted with national foundations, and I saw how they did.
Their grants and all that kind of stuff and how it works through relationships. And I’m like, people need to know how to get funding because I’m actually in the same boat where I’m working with this organization, trying to get funding, but administratively we’re a nightmare and I needed to get it together.
And it all came together with me just wanting to teach about my experiences. So I just started to do free classes. I got on YouTube to talk about my experience and it grew from there. And I find so many people who are doing great work, but just don’t know how to start an organization. And so that really resonated with me because that was my experience.
So that’s how Boston The Budget came to be. I just want to share my knowledge.
RHEA 02:05
thank you for sharing so vulnerably. I feel like so many of us have a similar story this is how I failed. And therefore, this is how I want to make sure other people don’t make the same mistakes. So just to be clear, you work with folks who are wanting to start a nonprofit or are just in the beginning startup phases, is that right?
TIFFANY 02:21
That’s right. Like people who are thinking about it. Some people are already doing the work, but just want to legitimize it with an actual business structure. And then people who have started, but they’re still stumbling their way through the startup process. Like the first five years typically.
RHEA 02:35
Yeah. And you said such an interesting point because I think people don’t realize when they start a nonprofit, that they’re actually starting a small business. And I don’t know, we can talk about misconceptions, but When I talk to folks, especially in the startup phase, I think that there’s this misconception that, oh, the minute I start a nonprofit, I’m just going to get all this magical grant money from, I don’t know where, like the magic grant fairy, and then I’m just going to go about my business.
And I like to say, hug the panda bears, little facetious, but tell me about some of the common misconceptions that you’ve heard when you’re talking to folks who are just thinking about starting a nonprofit.
TIFFANY 03:10
That’s definitely one. They think that once they get 501c3 status, money will automatically like.
Fall from the sky and they can just focus on doing their work, but it takes time, effort and money to raise money. And I think a lot of people just don’t realize that. So that’s the biggest one that you have to put in time and effort to raise money. I think also people think they can do it alone.
I come across some people who are like, I have an idea. This is my vision. This is the calling for my life and I don’t need anybody. I just want to be able to execute my vision. And I have to slow them down and say, wait a minute, you need a board. This is a public organization. This is not your own personal.
Organization, you need checks and balances. You need all those things, especially when you’re reporting to the IRS. And it really rubs people the wrong way. When I have to tell them, wait a minute, you have to do this with other people. You need to build community around your project. So I think those are the two biggest ones, like the thing around money and around involving people in your vision.
RHEA 04:16
The other one that I see and I’d be interested in your perspective on this is, I get a lot of times people are super passionate about a particular thing. And they decide to go for it. And I’m always Cautioning them to first of all, check out, does this thing already exist, right? Is there something out there?
Do you really need to recreate the wheel? Or can you create a program under an umbrella of something else? Because honestly, running a nonprofit, I think you get the idea that you’re going to be hugging the panda bears, but the truth is a lot of it is administration and fundraising. And and they’re just thinking about program.
Do you find that’s true in the folks that you talk to?
TIFFANY 04:54
Yeah, I think when people start nonprofits, they’re focused on the programming. They’re focused on the change they want to happen. And like I said before, a lot of them are already doing the work in the community, but they don’t realize they’re literally starting a business and It’s not that just they can make unilateral decisions in that business either.
So even if they’re prepared to start moving forward, they still can’t do that without a group of people to help push it forward. So I think a lot of people just don’t realize like it takes. Marketing, it takes planning, it takes budgeting to do all of that, and it’s just, it’s lost on them because they get so focused on wanting to do great things in the community.
There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you decide that your vehicle to do that is a nonprofit organization, then you need to be prepared for everything that comes with it.
RHEA 05:46
I’m curious as you’re talking, it just occurred to me that, the nonprofit organization is just one sort of legal IRS entity.
Have you ever counseled folks to consider like a for good business or a B Corp that was a business that had a public good? Because I think that there are some interesting hybrid models out there where you can still do good at the same time. As perhaps making money.
TIFFANY 06:14
So I know about B Corps and I’ve never really started one.
So I like to educate people about all their different options. The way I go about it is I tell people, look, there are certain things you need to think about if you think you are ready to start a nonprofit. And one of those is ownership. And I think that’s the one thing that hymns a lot of people up.
They want to have control over things they create, or they want to make soul decisions. And I say to them, if you don’t want to relinquish control over the vision that you have, you really need to reconsider. And so I talked to them about Maybe this needs to be a for profit venture. Maybe this just needs to be a small project and you leave it there.
Maybe you need a fiscal sponsor. So we talk about different options including that, cause I try to tell people you can still do good and not have a nonprofit, like they’re not the one in the same. So you don’t have to automatically go there. I think the problem in the U S culture, somehow we got in our head that.
Hey, I want to do a good project, automatically non profit and I don’t know how we got there, but my hope is that through my YouTube channel and things like that, when people see just how much work it is, they think twice or not even just think twice, they just go about it more thoughtfully so they can be successful.
RHEA 07:30
Yeah. It’s funny you say that because when people approach me about starting nonprofits, I actually usually actively discourage them from it because I think it is hard. And, to me, if. If my one conversation with you discourages you from doing it, good, you probably weren’t cut out to do it anyway, because we know that this work takes a lot of persistence, tenacity, and you have to have a pretty tough skin.
TIFFANY 07:53
Yeah. Yeah. I have come across a bunch of people who have been like, Hey, Tiffany, I want to start this nonprofit. But, Once they talk to me, it’s nevermind. I think I’m just going to go this route and I’m okay with that. Like I would, I appreciate that they thought about it. I appreciate that they took the time to realize it doesn’t work for them.
And I often tell people, it’s not a failure. Even if you start a nonprofit and decide to dissolve it, because I’ve had people like that come to me as well and say, you know what, Tiffany, after listening to you, I realized this isn’t what I’m cut out for. And I’m good with that too. Whatever makes sense. But just make sure you’re thinking about it the right way.
RHEA 08:28
That’s an interesting question, because I think founders are a really interesting kind of, Kind of a beast, right? It’s Sure, for sure. I think in many cases, what I’ve seen with founders, and again, I’d be interested in your perspective, is they tend to be very passionate, stubborn, headstrong, all of these things.
They help them to succeed against the odds. And then there comes a point, I think, within the organization’s life cycle, that all of the strengths that they had as founders become a liability. So talk to me about what are the pitfalls of founders potentially?
TIFFANY 09:01
That’s so funny that you put it that way because I’ve come across founders and the ones that are most successful are ones that are big visionary people like they see it and they’re like you said, they’re stubborn, they’re tenacious, they’re going to make this work, whether they have somebody to help them or not, they tend to be the people is if you’re not going to help me, I’m going to figure out a way to do it.
And a lot of times when they get to that point where they’re finally successful and they hit that momentum, some of it could be like I did this on my own. I’ve seen this just personally. I did this on my own and here are other people trying to ride my coattails and people hold tight to what they had.
Not realizing that they’re limiting their growth when they limit their network or when they limit the people that they trust. So I do see that a lot of founders have trust issues and some of that is justified. There aren’t always good people out here, but. They take, they go overboard with it and feel like I can’t trust anybody with my vision and they don’t realize that you’re not going to grow to where you think you’re going to grow if you’re holding so tight to every decision and every move and understand that there’s a reason why you have like diverse people on your board.
There’s a reason why you have different perspectives because that’s going to push you and challenge you. To be different and to grow. And I find that they have to come to a point where it’s do I want to grow or I just want this to be my thing? And if it’s just going to be your thing, then unfortunately it’s not going to be, it’s not going to be as successful as it could be.
RHEA 10:29
Yeah. No, that’s a really good point. It’s, there comes a point at which as a leader and as a founder that I think you have to reconsider your orientation, reconsider how you’re relating to the work and decide if. yOu either evolve with the needs of the organization or you don’t.
TIFFANY 10:46
And I try to tell people in the beginning like You want to see what your organization is 20 years from now, but you also need to ask yourself, where do I want to be in relation to my organization 20 years from now?
Because you can’t make the assumption that you always will be there because that’s not a fair assumption to make. iF you’re not on staff, if you’re not on the board, then you don’t necessarily have any tie to that nonprofit organization. So if you’re planning for your organization, you also need to plan for yourself.
Where you want to be, do you want to be the executive director? There are certain things you need to do from the very beginning to make sure that happens. But if you’re not thinking that way, people get to that point later and Oh, snap what do I do now? Or it tends to be a big mess because there’s confusion about roles and how you can grow and succession, like who comes after you, like people don’t think about those things until they come.
RHEA 11:36
Talk about succession for a second. Actually, before we talk about succession, cause I think it’s really important. One thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is the fact that founders tend to be the visionary, right? They tend to have the big ideas. They tend to, make it happen at all costs.
Generally speaking, in my experience, visionaries tend not to be great, and I’ll speak for myself, tend not to be great at process, tend not to be great at putting in structures and systems. So talk to me a little bit about how you advise folks to put in structures early on for that growth.
TIFFANY 12:07
Thanks. So I think there are two things that can help with that.
First of all, get people around you who are good at process and who are good at putting in structures. Because I’ve found with visionaries, like you, you’re not going to force them to do things that they don’t want to do. You’re not going to force them to plan. And it’s really hard to nail them down.
Cause they want to flow. Like they want to do their thing, right? So get people around you who’s good at that and can hold you accountable for that. And then I like to tell people to have certain plans from the very beginning. There are four that I typically talk about. The first one is like a strategic plan and not in the sense of other established organizations because in the nonprofit world, a strategic plan is like a really laborious process.
But I just mean be strategic about what you want to accomplish in your first year. Think about what year three or year five looks like. But in the next year, what does that look like for you? How do you need to move? Regarding your programming, your infrastructure, your fundraising, and your communications.
So have that plan first. The next thing I tell people is your budget, which 90 percent of the people I talk to don’t have a budget, don’t know how to do a budget, and it really impacts their ability to grow. So have a budget together that basically just puts your goals in numbers. For yourself.
What you need to accomplish the work. Then I tell people you need a fundraising plan. So you need to think about how you’re going to raise money. What are the strategies you’re going to leverage to make the money you need to make to cover your expenses and your budget. And then you need to think about your visibility.
So what are the ways you’re going to show up consistently? What are the ways you’re going to intentionally seek out relationships? Because investing in relationships early will pay off for your organization. So how are you going to show up online? How are you going to show up in your local community?
So focusing on those four areas is really important from the beginning.
RHEA 13:53
So much to dig into here, though, as you know, my focus is fundraising and the The mistake that I see lots of folks making, not just startup founders, but fundraisers in general, is that they’ll approach funders or potential donors, eh, with this kind of transactional mindset, right?
Or I’m going to try to get something from Tiffany, or I’m going to have this pitch that’s going to, so impress her that she’s going to give me money, right? And so I want to talk a little bit about how you advise folks in terms of relationship building. Because as we know, this is all a relationship game and if I don’t trust you, I’m not gonna give you my money.
TIFFANY 14:28
Yes. So I’m so glad you said that because I think people have a one dimensional view of fundraising. And so I like to talk about fundraising as relationships and building trust. The same thing. I talked to them about that and I tell people first is to identify the value they have, the expertise they have, something that they know someone else.
Would be interested in learning about, right? Because there’s a lot of people who start nonprofits who have this lived experience or perspectives that are often unknown to people. And I think are of great interest to donors and funders. So first find out like, what is the value you bring to the table?
What is something that you can share with someone? And the reason why I tell people to do that is because you want to find people who are aligned with that. Who care about that, who want to support that. So you got to be clear on what you’re changing, or what you care about, or what pisses people off that you want to change.
And once you identify that’s what people align with, and that’s what you lead with, right? There’s something in my community that’s not working. But we have the answer. This is something we want to do. We want to partner with people who want to see this change and I try to tell people look at it as a partnership to work together to make your community better and focus it in that way, because in a partnership, you’re not just trying to get what you want.
You also care about what the other person wants to and what that other person wants. It’s to see their resources are going to something good. So how are you communicating that to them? Like how are you starting that relationship or starting that partnership? So I try to teach from that perspective and it also helps to simplify it because people get so intimidated when they hear the word fundraising and they think it’s just like having the perfect letter, having the perfect pitch when it really is like a communicating that there’s a need and that you working together can help address it.
RHEA 16:18
I love that you’ve said that. It’s so funny. I was working with some folks who were in community organizing and I was explaining, my philosophy of fundraising and they go, Oh, this is just community organizing. I was like, yes, that’s exactly right. You’re just organizing a different community and you’re exactly right.
Like why? It’s so funny to me that we somehow put donors or funders in a different bucket. than the way that we think about our quote unquote community. They’re a part of your community. They just have a different role within the community. And so I think when we silo it off and somehow, why do you think that is?
I have my opinions, but I’d be curious. Why do you think that’s true?
TIFFANY 16:56
I think that, first of all, when people hear the word donor or funder, they’re automatically thinking of rich people or they’re automatically thinking of foundations. And I think in our culture, we perceive that if you have more money, you have more power.
And so there’s a certain The way we perceive you, there’s a certain way we treat you when we think that you’re, you have more power, like we defer to you more. And so that relationship has to feel different, it has to look different. And one of the things that I teach people is just because someone has money does not mean they’re smarter than you does not mean they have power over you, right?
They just have resources. That’s just what it is. And so you just want to align with that person because you have something they need. And a lot of people don’t realize that. They don’t realize that. I think that it’s just the donor has something to give, but you absolutely have something to give them.
And so I think when you level the playing field like that, it makes it easier. But for some reason, like we see people with money as being more powerful or better.
RHEA 17:55
Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah. I think, I agree with that. I would put it like somehow we think of people with money as just different in some kind of way.
They’re smarter. They’re meaner. I’ve heard all kinds of things about rich people are like this. And I’m like that’s really interesting. Yeah. First of all, how are we defining rich? Cause that’s a very relative term, like compared to who, by what metric are we saying rich?
And then secondly, how do you know that, right? Like, how are you able to say that about all different types of people based on this very arbitrary income bracket? They can’t all be like this, right? anD I think it’s interesting in popular culture, especially we like to reaffirm this trope of the evil rich person or like the self interested rich, and look, it’s true.
There are some rich people that are not great people, but there are also poor people who are not great people. So it’s like to my mind, money only amplifies what you already are.
TIFFANY 18:53
True. I believe that too. Okay.
RHEA 18:55
Tiffany, I’m just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who’s just starting out.
Maybe I am in the first year or two and I’m, and look, I understand what it means to be that first couple of years. You’re just hustling and grinding and, shaking out money everywhere you can find it. What would you say are the biggest obstacles that you see in years one and two for founders?
TIFFANY 19:16
Let me pick two. I think the first one is their mindset. I think a lot of people who get started, at least the people I encounter, and I tend to encounter a lot of people who are more grassroots, who have a lot of those lived experiences and want to help somebody else because they had their own experience.
A lot of times, They have this idea that I can do it on my own. I’ll fund this. I don’t really want to ask for money. I’m being a bother of people. I just want to help somebody. I don’t want to burden other folks. And when it comes to fundraising, like it’s a weird dynamic because they know they need money in the back of their head to be successful, but they don’t want to admit that they need money to be successful because admitting that means they have to ask for it and asking for it means.
It’s begging to them. And so there’s a lot of like things, beliefs that they have to overcome to realize like you need money to have a nonprofit. It’s okay to ask for money. You should be asking for money and your programming deserves funding just like any other programming. So I think a lot of it is really just mindset because what happens is they don’t even ask for money.
They don’t even try. They don’t even go for the opportunities because they deep down, they don’t believe. They deserve it or their serves it. And that’s a big thing that I work with people on. We have like mantras and things that we focus on when I do challenges for people. Cause it’s you have to overcome that.
You have to get over the idea that just because you’re a charity, you shouldn’t be asking for money or worrying about money.
RHEA 20:45
Yeah. And if I can add to that, I think it’s really interesting that we tend to be very weird about asking people who are closest to us for money. So we’re out here talking to everyone and their mother, but we’re actually not talking to our mother about it.
And I think that a lot of the people who are closest to us are like how come she’s not asking me? Maybe it’s something about me. Cause I really think of fundraising as, you’re just throwing a party and you just want to see who wants to come to the party. So I like that. I’ve never been offended by being invited to a party.
I may not go to the party, but I’m never like, how dare you invite me.
TIFFANY 21:17
I like to say, people are grown, you can’t make decisions for them. So when you limit yourself and say, I don’t want to ask because they don’t have money or they don’t, they’re never going to support me. How are you making decisions for other people already where you’re not even going to ask?
So your responsibility is just to provide the opportunity. You invite people to the opportunity and then it’s up to them to decide because they are growing. So they can make the decision they need to make and that doesn’t mean that you’re less worthy or they’re less worthy for whatever decision that they made.
I think the other big thing for founders is their message. They have a hard time communicating why they exist and communicating why someone should support. The work that they do because in their heads, I don’t know if they believe that they have to have a really persuasive argument because I’m a nonprofit, so you should just give naturally, if I tell you I have a nonprofit and I’m making the world a better place, that should be enough for you to give to me, but people don’t realize, how many nonprofits are out there and like people aren’t, they’re not motivated by Okay.
The idea of a nonprofit, they’re motivated by a change or transformation, right? Or a connection to a cause or a relationship that they have to someone who’s connected to a cause. That’s what motivates them. And people don’t necessarily understand that in the very beginning. And they don’t know how to use their story to push that forward.
They don’t know how to hone in that message. So I find that a lot of people struggle with that. And, but once they get that, then it’s a lot easier for them to raise money.
RHEA 22:52
I love that you said that because I also think I’ve seen this, especially the founders too, is that they’re cursed with too much knowledge.
So they’ll talk to someone about what they do and it’s just like this, like verbal diarrhea. You tell them too many details, too much information. And as a listener, I’m like, whoa. TMI. Like I, I can’t digest all of it. And I also think people lose sight of the fact that not everything is going to be for everybody, right?
So I have known folks who’ve gotten really salty about the fact that I know there are lots of people out here and how come they’re not giving me money? I’m like, because not everything is for everybody. Like this, your particular thing may not be my particular thing. There are lots of things out there.
And I think. Again, some of the mistakes I see are people who just like glom on to holding on to this grudge. It’s that person didn’t give me money and therefore I feel some kind of way about it as opposed to like, bless and release. Okay. That person has said that this is not their thing and that’s okay.
There are lots of other people out there in the world for whom this is their thing.
TIFFANY 23:54
And again, you’re just providing the opportunity. Like you said, you’re inviting them to the party and it’s their decision to decide, whether they want to come, but that’s their decision. Let them have it.
RHEA 24:05
Totally. All right. As we’re wrapping up, is there anything else that you feel like we have to touch on with respect to starting a nonprofit or any misconceptions that folks should clear up right now if they’re thinking about starting up?
TIFFANY 24:16
I feel like we could go all day on this one. I just have to point out the board.
RHEA 24:22
Tiffany, you’re about to open a can of worms. Go ahead, friend.
TIFFANY 24:25
Yeah. I just didn’t want to say to open the can of worms, but I have to say, your board is critical to your success. And I think people don’t believe me when I say that. And then I always get people who come back or like, I’m burnt out.
You’re burnt out because you don’t have the support, so a lot of people automatically go to starting to do programming when they establish your nonprofit, but I really do believe you need to invest early on finding the right people. And taking your time to find a good core of people first, and then start executing a lot of the work of the organization, especially the administrative work.
And a lot of people don’t want to hear that because it slows them down, but that time you invest in finding the right people. Will pay off. It will absolutely pay off because what happens with a lot of founders is that they get their family and their friends on their initial board. And a lot of times it’s just a name because they feel like they can handle it.
But when things start to grow and they need help and they try to delegate. The board just isn’t coming through for them or they identify people, but they didn’t clearly explain the role. They’re not engaging them appropriately. They’re not meeting regularly. So they tap into their board when they need something.
And of course the board is ignoring them or not engaged because you haven’t taken the time to build a relationship with them. So we’ve talked about relationships with donors and funders. But you have to have relationships with your board as well. And you have to invest in that as well. I think that’s just something that’s lost on a lot of founders.
So if anyone’s listening, just please invest in finding the right people that the people and find the people who fit your needs and fit the vision of the nonprofit.
RHEA 26:05
You said so much there, I just want to unpack it and underline it for folks, which is spend time vetting people, identifying who you need, find them and then make sure they’re a good fit because, and then tell them what the expectation is because that’s the other thing that I see is people are like, Oh, you can be on the board, you don’t really have to do anything.
And then they complain when the board doesn’t do anything. I’m like, you didn’t tell them that was part of the deal. It’s really, it’s on you because it’s a bit of a bait and switch. The last piece I’m going to add here is there’s a book I’m obsessed with. I don’t know if you’ve read Who, Not How.
No, I haven’t heard of it. It’s by Dan Sullivan. It’s a really good read, but essentially it’s You, in order to grow and scale, you need to find your who’s who take care of the how’s. And I think founders, because they have some control issues and I am one myself, so I know of once I speak, we get really involved in the details of it needs to be done this way, because we don’t trust people to do their jobs.
But if we found the right who’s who had competency, who are more competent than we were at a particular thing, we wouldn’t have to micromanage.
TIFFANY 27:06
That’s exactly right. But that’s hard. It’s hard to trust people to do work, especially when you feel like, this is my baby. Yeah. I don’t know if I bring people on, if they will see it the way I see it.
Yeah. But you have to remove yourself from that and realize that you have to be loyal to the mission, not to yourself. And so what is your community need? Because even you may not know or understand what your community needs. Even you may not have the right answer and you have to let go of that control of thinking that just everything that you believe needs to happen should happen.
RHEA 27:39
What do you mean, Tiffany? I thought I knew everything and I thought I could do everything and I could work a million hours a week and get it all done.
TIFFANY 27:46
I’m trying to save you. I’m trying to save you from what I see so many times people get so burnt out and I don’t want you to get burnt out doing good because you are literally the safety net.
A lot of the things that people do around the country is the real safety net in our communities. And so I don’t want you to get. Burnt out from doing good. Yeah, that doesn’t help anybody.
RHEA 28:08
All right, friend. This has been so fun. Where can folks learn more about the work that you do and who do you work with exactly?
TIFFANY 28:22
So you can find me on YouTube at Boston A Budget. I work with founders who need help through their launch. Journey, and I specifically help you find that startup funding and get your structures together when you want to launch.
I also have a new membership community called the purpose profit society where I’m working with startups to help them through that journey. So if you’re interested in that, visit me at bostonandbudget. com to learn more.
RHEA 28:49
Fantastic. So all those folks out here who are thinking about starting a non profit or are in the early stages, check out Tiffany.
She’s got some good info for you. Tiffany, my friend, thank you so much for being on the show.
TIFFANY 28:59
Thank you for having me. It’s always good to talk to you.
RHEA 29:02
Always so fun.
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