Man oh man, do I love a good quiz. Chalk it up to my being of the YM generation 📣 (shout out to my Gen X’ers!)
Join me and Brian Saber to deconstruct your Asking Style. Did you know that there are four kinds and that you have a primary and secondary style? Learn more about your strengths and how to partner with others to compensate for your weaknesses. This is a really fun conversation that helps to demystify some of the dynamics of asking.
To take the quiz, visit: quiz.askingmatters.com
To connect with Brian: briansaber.com
Quote from Brian: “I ask permission to ask”
Episode Transcript
RHEA 00:10
Hey, podcast listeners! Rhea Wong is with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today, we are talking with Brian Saber, president of Asking Matters about our asking styles. I feel like this is going to revolutionize the way that we think about asking. So let’s just jump into it. Welcome, Brian!
BRIAN 00:29
Thank you. Thank you for having me here today.
RHEA 00:31
So, Brian, this is so fun. Everyone loves a quiz. But before we jump into what asking sales are, as you note, I have your book right here. I know you’re working on another one. But before we jump into that, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in the nonprofit world.
BRIAN 00:49
Sure! Well, I fell into it right after college. I was one of those do-gooders, very involved in lots of activities. I was a student leader. And I really enjoyed being part of a group that was trying to make something better, not just making money, rich myself, whatever.
BRIAN 01:11
But I felt I was part of a group working together in that case for education. And decided I wanted to go into the nonprofit world. I didn’t have any idea what that meant, really, in terms of what I would do.
BRIAN 01:26
And ended up first with some really low-level marketing jobs at a performing arts center where you didn’t have to have any experience because I think they paid me $11,500 a year.
BRIAN 01:37
And then I fell into a dance company where I was a business manager, only because I had an economics degree. And it was pretty simple. It was a small company.
BRIAN 01:47
And then I became the executive director of a teeny dance company in Chicago, a couple of $100,000 a year, where I was everything except the program really. And I had to fundraise.
BRIAN 02:03
And so I started fundraising, I had a big grant, a renewal to the foundation due two weeks after I started, I had no idea. I’d never seen a grant or anything in my life.
BRIAN 02:16
And I intuitively, because I am more intuitive, and we’ll talk about that, we worked it because when I saw it, it didn’t really, it wasn’t strong in my opinion. And I met with a funder and I developed a relationship and we got renewed. And then I had to start working with the board.
BRIAN 02:31
And I just learned by doing. I never thought I’d be a fundraiser. And because I turned out to be very good at building relationships, bringing in significant gifts from individuals and from institutions, and working with the board, everyone wanted me to do it going forward.
BRIAN 02:51
And I ended up spending a lot of my career the next 20 years doing that until 2008 when I stepped back and said I want to do something different. And then that evolved into asking matters in the asking styles.
BRIAN 03:07
This is because I felt our field needed so much help trying to be more comfortable and more effective in doing the work that I did.
RHEA 03:16
So much of what you’re saying echoes my own experience, and so many others out there as accidental fundraisers, right? Like we’re tasked to do these jobs. We don’t really receive formal training and it feels a little bit like sink or swim, right?
RHEA 03:33
Like you either are good at it or you decide it’s not for you and you leave the field. So let’s talk about asking you because I know solicitation is a thing that creates so much anxiety for people. I literally have had board members who said I will do anything but ask for money. Why is it that you think asking creates so much anxiety for people?
BRIAN 03:55
There are many reasons. When we’re looking at board members, the big issue there and it’s a huge bone of contention for me is that we asked our board members to step on relationships and ask the people they know for what turned out to be these transactional gifts.
BRIAN 04:12
They give the gift because some of you, don’t really care. Maybe they asked you to give a gift in return. The whole thing is very awkward. And most people don’t want to step on the relationships that come in between them. So there’s a big piece there.
BRIAN 04:26
We generally spend a lot of time talking about mindset. Because when we sit down with a donor, someone who’s primed, right? They have their philanthropy hat on. They’re primed to give. They’re coming from a place of generosity, hopefully, right?
BRIAN 04:44
And we sit down with all of these other issues, all this other stuff in our head, including our relationship to money, how we grew up talking, not talking about it, how it impacts our lives, our sense of our money for versus other people’s money and so forth.
BRIAN 05:03
And, on top of that we have, what most of us have a fear of rejection, a fear of doing things poorly, being awkward, making a mess up on behalf of the organization, and not wanting to just screw it up in general.
BRIAN 05:19
All of that comes to the table for this and is compounded because as you sort of intimated with, we just start doing, we have so little training. I have never had an hour of training and fundraising. Instead, I had 25 years of doing it to sort of figure it out.
BRIAN 05:37
It would have been a lot easier if I had some training in 1985 during my first job, right? Today, there is more training. And a lot of people get more through webinars and all sorts of things earlier.
BRIAN 05:50
I feel old when I say that, like I’m another generation, but I did we don’t have much training. Our boards have virtually no training. And this is not easy stuff. This is the hardest. I think it’s the hardest fundraising because it involves relationships.
RHEA 06:04
Oh, my God! Brian, for the podcast listeners, you can’t see me. I’ve just nodded emphatically over here because I double-click on everything you just said. I mean, as people who’ve been following me for any length of time know a money mindset is one of my seminal training, right?
RHEA 06:20
Because I don’t think you can be an effective fundraiser until you unpack your own stuff about money, your baggage, your trauma, the stories that you tell, the stories that you talk about other people’s money, right? Got way through all that stuff, way through the fear of rejection, way through the anxiety, all of the things.
RHEA 06:39
So yes, yes, and yes! And I agree with you my first day on the job as an ED, 26 years old, I did two Google searches. The first was what an ED does. And second, was how to fundraise. I fundraised in a day in my life.
BRIAN 06:54
And most EDs haven’t because most EDs come from the program side. Actually, I was an ED twice. And the second time, I rose from a deputy in charge of all the fundraising and marketing and external stuff to ED.
BRIAN 07:11
I was a rare breed going into that role. Most EDs go into that role. The board’s expecting them to do all that work. And they’ve had no training. They have no idea what to do.
RHEA 07:21
Hello! Can we double-click on that? Yes! And the thing that gets me is boards are then reluctant to invest in professional development. To have the person that they hired to do the job actually know how to do the job. It blows my mind.
BRIAN 07:38
Oh, I asked this question every time I trained now, how many hours do you think it takes to get a license to cut hair in a particular state?
RHEA 07:50
Yeah, 100 hours.
BRIAN 07:52
It is anywhere from 1200 hours. Yes, to get a certificate to cut hair. So you can cut your hair. You can cut hair. And so you have an extraordinary amount of training. And yet we go out to do something. I mean, people want to cut hair.
BRIAN 08:14
People go into that business because they want to cut hair. They have some artistic, whatever. And they have to have 1000 plus hours to do it. And we start fundraising with zero hours. And we ask our board members to do it. It’s crazy. I know everyone thinks maybe 100 hours or 200 hours. Google it.
RHEA 08:35
I believe you. That’s a good thing. So what you’re saying here is that it takes more training to cut people’s hair than it does to be able to fundraise on behalf of life-changing causes? Is that what are you saying? Okay!
BRIAN 08:52
Yes, to be clear. Anyway, people want to cut hair because we all like to…
RHEA 08:57
Listen. Well, you see all this? I’m feeling good. But also people, we really need to start investing in our people. Okay. All right, let’s transition. You’re feeling my outrage. We’re gonna move on that. So you have this book, Asking Sales, which I love. You sent it to me and you put a lovely inscription. So thank you for that
RHEA 09:22
Okay. People can go. They can take the quiz. They can figure out which of the four asking styles they are. Brian and I, before we got on the call, I had him guess who I was, and I guess who he was. So we’ll do that reveal at the end for funsies. Walk us through this a little bit. Maybe talk about the origin story briefly and then talk about each of the styles and the pros and cons of each.
BRIAN 09:49
Sure! So it came out, first of all, my partner in this at the beginning was… She was a well-known capital campaign consultant.
BRIAN 09:58
She literally wrote the book that people use the book that I have used since meeting her, and she had done a campaign with my last organization. We become best friends and then we decide to work together.
BRIAN 10:10
And she had been noodling with this idea that there are temperaments or something. And I said, let’s take that. Let’s see what we can do with it.
BRIAN 10:16
And we built the Asking Styles and Asking Matters because we realize through our work, that this is the work we talk about cultivating and soliciting people individually, and significantly, individuals. Because that is the hardest. It’s easier to go to grantors and such.
BRIAN 10:35
For many reasons, we won’t discuss. But also most of the money is with individuals, if you look at the statistics, so focus on that. And we knew that there were different ways to do it. No one had it all. Right? I never had it all. I had certain strengths.
BRIAN 10:50
I played to my strengths. I tried to compensate or partner where I do. And we wanted to help people understand what they brought to the table, really be proud of what they had and then try and figure out their challenges.
BRIAN 11:02
And we thought, well, what are the characteristics that most impact someone’s asking style? And we thought, well, it’s first how you interact, maybe mostly how you interact because we’re caught and talking about relationships.
BRIAN 11:02
Whether you’re an extrovert or an introvert, right? We are on that spectrum. Of course, people have these gross stereotypes of all of these things, right? So showing my age, I use an example for the stereotypical extrovert, John Candy from planes, trains, and automobiles, so in your face, and you could use Michael Scott from the office, right?
BRIAN 11:37
Everyone knows that character. And that an introvert someone like Shrek hermetically sealed someone who never socializes, neither of which is true for 99 and nine-tenths percent of the population.
BRIAN 11:48
So it’s how you interact. And then the second characteristic is how do you think? We’re on the analytic intuitive line, are you? Are you into the facts and figures and such? Is it more about a story and a gut feeling? Because that’s going to impact.
BRIAN 12:03
Why you came to this organization in the first place as either a staff member or a board member? Why you’re passionate about it, and how you’re going to talk about it? When we put the two together, we get these four styles: Rainmaker, Go-Getter, Kindred Spirit, and Mission Controller.
BRIAN 12:18
Now, no one fits cleanly in one box. And as you know, from taking the quiz, we have a primary and a secondary. So it gives you a little more nuance, the Rainmaker, the analytic extrovert..
RHEA 12:29
But before we get into it, because as I was reading about it, it really struck me as very similar to kind of a Myers-Briggs, kind of like a TJ, or whatever it is. And so was that the inspiration for it? Or, is it connected to Myers-Briggs?
BRIAN 12:46
It isn’t. It isn’t. This was developed on its own. But the philosophies are similar. There’s also a disc. There are many of these that are divided into four quadrants. So we tried to do something like that, based on the two characteristics as we understood it.
BRIAN 13:01
We put it in more layman’s terms, and then in fundraising terms so that it was to use as maybe a happy word accessible. But we wanted it to be really something you could that was tangible once you knew what you knew it.
BRIAN 13:16
And I’ll be honest because as I said before we went live, I wasn’t a big personality, quiz whatever person before this, Andrea had more experience with it. But I do remember some of them not being able to remember what I was and what it meant. I sometimes have to go back to my notes.
BRIAN 13:34
Again, not to disparage anything but I think for many of them, you have to go in really deep to really understand and we wanted it to be simpler than that. So it was easy to apply and easy to discuss at the moment. The philosophy of what we do is that it’s pretty straightforward and usable. No jargon No, whatever.
RHEA 13:57
Yeah! Okay, cool. Let’s dig into the four types. Could just quickly walk us through the characters, pros, and cons of each profile? I guess let’s start with the rainmaker.
BRIAN 14:08
Rainmaker. The extrovert, competitive, and driven, keep their eye on the prize, always watching the goal. Ask the question, what’s the goal? The goal is going to drive the rainmaker and it has to be quantitative because you have to be able to assess it.
BRIAN 14:27
That’s how the rainmaker assesses whether the goal has been reached. Okay, we made five, and we closed five gifts. We raised $100,000 for our investment account, whatever it is. So great skills in moving forward, keeping their eye on the prize, and such short on the process.
BRIAN 14:47
Short on the process. It doesn’t like to spend a lot of time. I can always tell my rainmaker of donors, of course, they’re not asking but everyone has one of these personalities, right? The rainmaker donor is the one who says let’s just get to the point.
BRIAN 14:59
I don’t need a lot of chit-chats first, why are you here? And often, in a way cuts off the wonderful story I was going to tell. Anyway, that’s the rainmaker.
BRIAN 15:12
The go-getter, our intuitive extrovert is the big picture thinker, passionate, makes friends easily, has lots of ideas, and brings people along through their enthusiasm, which is so exciting.
BRIAN 15:27
And I have to say, I love go-getters. Many of my favorite people are and I love them until they drive me nuts, including Andrea, my co-founder who had tons of ideas, and eventually, we realized I think it’s in the book that I don’t want to reveal my style yet.
BRIAN 15:47
Yes, I’m not supposed to reveal it. But we had a different approach to process into these ideas. And I needed to step back and really think about them. And we finally realized our meetings had to be a little shorter because I had to be able to digest everything she was telling me.
BRIAN 16:02
So that’s our go-getter. Our kindred spirit, our intuitive introvert is the feelings-oriented where your heart is on the sleeve person. They can be oversensitive, but very sensitive, sensitive to others, caring, and thoughtful.
BRIAN 16:21
How can I make sure you feel good about your contribution? I want to make sure you’re heard. How would you like to be thanked? What can I do for you to show our appreciation and so forth?
BRIAN 16:31
Those are fabulous skills for a fundraiser, very different from a rainmaker, not saying a rainmaker can’t be caring, and a kindred spirit can’t be goal oriented, but we have our niche, right?
BRIAN 16:42
So those are the strengths of the kindred spirit, but the kindred spirit can be, can look at negotiation as conflict, right? May want to steer clear of the more difficult questions, may want to put a number on the table, that’s a little load and make sure they’re not gonna get any pushback, things like that.
BRIAN 17:01
So those are some challenges for the kindred spirit. By the way, in terms of the go-getter. Besides ideas and such go-getters often talk too much. It’s just that we know listening is so important in fundraising and go-getters can overshare them.
BRIAN 17:14
Mission controllers are the fourth style. That’s the analytic introvert. That’s the Eagle Scout, the one you can always depend on to keep their eye on what’s happening, very systematic, methodical.
BRIAN 17:30
They’re always going to ask, well, what’s the plan? What’s the plan? And how do we make this happen? And the best listeners, are most likely to sit back and listen rather than talk which as we know when you and I have discussed is so key to fundraising, listening, and learning.
BRIAN 17:46
So in question terms, the rainmaker is going to ask, what’s the goal? Quantitative. The go-getter is going to say, what’s the opportunity? What’s the big-picture vision? Not as concrete, but exciting.
BRIAN 18:00
The kindred spirit is going to say, what about the people? Are we serving people the best? And the mission controller is gonna say, well, what’s the plan? Can we get it done? So, right, okay, the goal is great. Can we get it done?
BRIAN 18:17
It’s great that you see this opportunity, can we do it? How do we do it? We want to serve the people. How do we do? So it’s checks and balances, actually, when you have everyone.
RHEA 18:27
So are you one forever and ever? I mean, can you change over time? And you have a second complementary style?
BRIAN 18:37
Yes! So let me answer the secondary. You do have a secondary and anyone who takes the quiz will get a result. And it might say your primary rainmaker, secondary go-getter, which says your extraversion is really the primary characteristic, right?
BRIAN 18:55
How you interact, but you have some of the analytic and the intuitive, or might say, your mission controller, kindred spirit, right? Much more introverted with some of the intuitive story along with your analytic fact side.
BRIAN 19:10
And we did that because we don’t think anyone fits cleanly in one box. And we don’t want and also depending on who you are. Some people are going to be like, really in a corner, over something or other hardcore up there.
BRIAN 19:27
Many of us are more towards the middle. And depending on the situation, it’s much easier for us to use more or less of our toolkit, right? Because we all have some of the characteristics I mentioned. And some people say I’m really not sure which one I am.
BRIAN 19:46
We’re almost right here at the origin of the axes, right? Where they really have fallen to those. So the first question is, yes, you do have more than one and we say it’s a secondary style. Can you change it? No! You are who you are. But you change how you act. You learn skills.
BRIAN 20:10
You learn how to deal with some of your own challenges and make things comfortable for you. You become an executive director and you have no choice but to focus on plans and budgets. And you’ll learn how to do it, even if you were a major intuitive before.
BRIAN 20:23
You learn how to do it, or you find someone to do it for you. But people don’t generally at the age of 30 become analytics if they’re not analytics. There’s some play, you might get more comfortable with your own gut over time, and you may even rely a little less on the analytics.
BRIAN 20:45
But I think we are who we are. And I will say here a few years ago because I get that question a lot. I looked at Myers-Briggs and what they do. I hadn’t before, and they say the same thing. They say we believe you basically are who you are, and you learn how to act in the world. So I’m assuming disc and all the others do as well.
RHEA 21:03
Yeah! It’s interesting, too, because as you talk about it, I think the most skilled fundraisers are what we would call a curious chameleon. So they’re able to lead with curiosity about the donor, but they’re also able to change their style.
RHEA 21:20
Like, you know, for me as an example, what I will share with what I am, but I knew that if I were speaking to someone who worked on Wall Street, like the facts and figures, I would lead with that, right? As opposed to somebody who was more sort of story-driven.
RHEA 21:34
And I believe that so I learned how to speak the language. But actually, that’s a really great point. Because the styles are not just about the askers. It’s also about your donors. Right? So let’s talk about that.
BRIAN 21:48
Sure! Well, again, you start with who you are. So I always tell an intuitive story. It’s who I am. If someone’s going to say what’s so great about your organization, I’m going to talk about it from my perspective and my passion.
BRIAN 22:05
And that’s what everyone should do. It doesn’t mean you don’t get to know your donor, and also cater to your donors’ interests and perspective in the meeting, after the meeting, and during the whole relationship, right?
BRIAN 22:21
You learn which donors want more facts and figures, and you can provide them without having to tell a story that’s about them. Because chameleons is an interesting word because there’s this thin line and fundraising, where the goal is to be authentic, right?
BRIAN 22:40
To be passionate and authentic. When I teach storytelling, your story, I say, be authentic. Because if everyone remembers the elevator pitch, we used to tell our boards.
RHEA 22:52
Every single mission is to just kill the pitch.
BRIAN 22:56
Kill the pitch. It means everyone’s saying the same thing. And most people are saying something that really isn’t germane to how they feel and what’s so important to them. And unless you have a board full of fabulous actors, theatre company, and you have all these actors on your board.
BRIAN 23:13
They can act that out. But for most of us, it’s going to fall flat if we say it, what we want to do is be ourselves because our donors want to feel we’re at being authentic, and that we’re passionate. Otherwise, why would they form a relationship with us?
BRIAN 23:28
And so there’s this thin line, right? And I think when it comes, the best thing you can be is yourself. And part of the best practices in fundraising is understanding your donor and also bringing that to the table that’s legit, trying to talk like a facts and figures person, is it? Bringing the facts and figures and saying I know you’re interested in them? Here they are, it makes sense.
RHEA 23:56
Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I just want to make sure that we lift that point up which is you have to know who you are and lead with authenticity because the number one thing that people can sniff out is being us.
RHEA 24:08
They know you’re being fake. They know what you’re trying to network with them. I mean, you can smell it a mile away, especially New Yorkers. New Yorkers have very finely tuned of being us.
BRIAN 24:19
And who wants to build a relationship with a faker? Right? In our lives in general, right? We veer away from that.
RHEA 24:26
So how do we know, when we’re talking to donors, what are the things that we might be able to hear to indicate where they are on the different style?
BRIAN 24:36
So sometimes I say you learn that sometimes just setting up the meeting. So you reach out to your donor and said, I’d love to sit down with you to bring you up to date on what we’re doing and ask for your feedback, whatever that is board like to sit down and ask for that.
BRIAN 24:51
Well, the rainmakers going to be okay, let’s get out our calendars and probably give you less time than more right? The go-getter, oh! Sure, great and open to it. Let’s meet because the go-getter is going to enjoy meeting it overall.
BRIAN 25:07
The kindred spirit will probably meet to come through for you as the donor, as much as anything. I know it’s important to the organization. So I’ll meet and you may hear some of that message.
BRIAN 25:21
And the mission controller will go along with it. But it’s the most likely to say send me information in advance. That’s the other thing. Go-getter, so just come meet with me. Polar opposite mission controllers owners, sure! Can you send me a proposal in advance? Which I try not to do. Right?
BRIAN 25:38
And I try. But they’re the most likely to ask for that. They may ask for facts and figures. The analytics will ask for more information. So you can sometimes tell just by setting up the meeting. You can certainly tell by the questions that people ask and how they asked them. Right? I will admit, okay, I do need to share my style, because it’s hard for me.
RHEA 25:59
Share your style. I’ll share my style.
BRIAN 26:01
Okay! I am a kindred spirit with a secondary mission controller. And here’s how I describe it. Well, I’ve definitely been introverted. I never go to a party. Period. I do not go to parties.
RHEA 26:14
COVID must be great for you.
BRIAN 26:17
Well, it’s funny. I mean, I was lonely. But actually, I accomplished a tremendous amount. And I know, extroverts were just it was crazy for them. But I was able to do it, I did 70 odd jigsaw puzzles. I wrote two books, I did all this stuff.
BRIAN 26:33
I was very productive during COVID. So I didn’t spend a lot of time by myself. But I really need people in my life. I don’t want to say I’m a hermit. And I can go along with whatever anyone wants to do.
BRIAN 26:45
However, you want to do that. I’m often asked to leave things, make decisions and leave things because I have a strong mission controller. I’m good at organizing. So even though I don’t want to leave things, my kindred spirit says I don’t really want to be in the limelight.
BRIAN 27:03
I often end up sort of in the limelight because someone has to do it. I feel bad that it’s not getting done. And I’d say I’ll do it. And everyone’s happy that I’ll do it. Even board fundraising. So when I’m driving a deputy ED or an ED, the board has said, well Brian, you can ask us for gifts, basically.
BRIAN 27:21
And I do it because I can. I want to make sure it gets done. But boy, do I not want to do it. I don’t think staff to be soliciting. Anyway, that could be another webinar. But that’s how I look at my style. And I so I mentioned kindred spirit and a mission controller because I get anxious with rainmakers.
BRIAN 27:43
They’re so focused, and they want to drill in and for them, it’s exciting. I’m going to figure this out, we’re going to parry elbows back and forth. And I find it confrontational. So that’s my own thing to deal with.
BRIAN 27:59
So I find I’m most anxious when I go see rainmaker donors, and it’s obvious to me who they are because of how the questions they ask and how their speed of them, and how quickly they then want to get to the meeting.
RHEA 28:18
So wait, okay, the question here. There are so many questions. But we know that storytelling is the best practice. We talk about how the story unlocks generosity. There’s a lot of brain science about why a story works. Is that at odds with donors who are essentially rainmakers and mission controllers like do they think it’s just like fluffy stuff? Or does it still work?
BRIAN 28:43
So I think, well, first of all, mission controllers are going to tell what I call a planned story, where they’re going to talk about how the way the organization works, makes an impact and fulfills vision. I always talk about making an impact and fulfilling my vision.
BRIAN 29:04
But we talked about it in a different way. So the rainmaker will talk about the goals we have for making an impact and fulfilling our vision, whereas the go-getter will talk about looking at the opportunity we have.
BRIAN 29:18
This is what we’re trying to take advantage of. So in a way, we’re all telling our stories. It is always but it’s not always a story about a person and their journey and such I say, if you can’t tell that story, well, if it’s not really meaningful to you don’t tell that story.
BRIAN 29:34
Yes, that might be ideal. And in direct mail letters, you always have a piece of that because you have people who really love that story. But first comes being yourself for sure. So to me, the story has a broader connotation.
BRIAN 29:51
Right? And yeah, everyone is telling a story, but what that specific story you’re talking about that the research shows you can only Intelligence good if you’re good at it. I think more important than that story is the overall relationship you develop with your donor over time.
BRIAN 30:08
So they trust you. So they believe in you, as the representative of the organization. That’s really what’s most important in fundraising building that relationship. So many of the gifts I’ve gotten over time are because of that relationship.
BRIAN 30:24
And while we don’t want people giving because of us. We want them to give because of the organization. We are entwined. There’s no way around that. We are. And if we’re bad representatives that will impact how they feel about the organization, and how they contribute.
BRIAN 30:40
So building those long, deep relationships is really important. And I don’t think that’s based on just telling a story. It’s based on being thoughtful, involving people and thanking them, and letting them know how important their gift is.
RHEA 30:58
We do talk about having people develop a relationship with our organization. We might call it brand loyalty in a closed-profit context. But the way I think about it is I will buy Apple because I have brand loyalty.
RHEA 31:14
But when it comes to my nonprofit life, I actually am much more attached to the people. Right? As opposed to the organization. I’m just wondering, do you think it’s possible to develop that kind of brand loyalty to a cause an organization without that personal relationship?
BRIAN 31:38
Yes, I think so. I think there are many organizations that have very strong brand loyalty. I can mention St. Jude. I think virtually none of the people who contribute have a relationship. They have an extraordinary brand, of course, they’re very large.
BRIAN 31:53
So I caution there because you and I know 90% Of all nonprofits have a budget of under a billion dollars. It’s very hard to develop a brand, right? So the loyalty probably is more to people.
BRIAN 32:06
On the other hand, there are some organizations like Boys and Girls Clubs wise, boys or girls club Volunteers of America, where the huge organization has a brand, an image, and such. But locally, the loyalty is not to the brand, it’s really to the people on the ground in that community. So it becomes a myth.
BRIAN 32:26
But it’s hard for most of us to fundraise without the relationship, the personal relationship building, and the loyalty to the relationship, getting to know the ED or president and supporting their work.
RHEA 32:41
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it is a people business, right? It’s a relationship.
BRIAN 32:44
We’re helping people, right? So people want to know who’s helping the people.
RHEA 32:50
100%. Let’s talk about partnering up. I will share because you shared. I am a go-getter, which maybe it’s not a surprise to people. And my secondary is intuitive, which actually, I would not have guessed. I would have guessed my secondary was mission control. But, anyway…
BRIAN 33:06
Oh, well, you can’t be diagonal. They have to be…
RHEA 33:08
Oh, you can’t. Okay, let’s talk about them. Why can’t you be diagonal?
BRIAN 33:12
Because then you’re basically everything. And then it’s just a mismatch.
RHEA 33:15
Well, maybe I just everything, right?
BRIAN 33:17
Maybe you’re here. We give an adjacent one because it gives you a sense of which of the two characteristics might be more dominant. Right? So you’re what we’re saying here is your intuition is really strong. That you’re more in the middle of that introvert-extrovert.
BRIAN 33:37
But the intuitive, well, you couldn’t be here, but the intuitive is really strong. And that keeps you on this side of the graph. Your secondary was a rainmaker. It would be saying the extraversion is really strongest, but you’ve got more of that analytic side.
RHEA 33:57
Got it! Okay, so if we take this quiz, which I hope everyone listening to this does take, how do we shore up for, I would say weaknesses, that’s a strong word. But what are areas of growth? Like, how do we team up so that we have someone who is making up for where we might be lacking a bit?
BRIAN 34:17
Yes. So I’m a big fan of partnering, by the way, partnering on relationships and on assets. I think, I often recommend to organizations to cover less ground, but to cover it more deeply for a lot of reasons.
BRIAN 34:32
From the donor’s point of view, if there are two relationships between the donor and the organization that strengthens the bond, by the way. And secondarily, there’s a lot of movement on our side, a lot of fundraisers come they go board members come and go.
BRIAN 34:47
And having two relationships ensures that they’ll always be one. How many of our donors fall off the grid because the person they were close to is left? And it’s so, the goal always is to first keep the gifts you have, and keep the donors out.
BRIAN 35:04
So I like to for that reason, from that point of view. But also as a fundraiser, I like it because someone compliments me. It’s more enjoyable to do it together. It’s more enjoyable to be in the meetings.
BRIAN 35:16
We often don’t know our donors as well, at the ideal level when we go to talk to them about a gift, right? And we don’t know who they’re going to cotton to more, or who they’re going to judge jive with more in the meeting?
BRIAN 35:31
Or who would have the answer to the question or be a better person to answer it. So I like this idea of partnering. Now, in most organizations, you go with whoever you got. You don’t even have a fundraiser on staff. You’re the ED, you’re doing it all.
BRIAN 35:46
So if you’re going to go with anyone at someone from the program side, or maybe at your board chair, so you have what you have. In that case, you use the styles to understand better. How the two of you would work?
BRIAN 35:58
So you can figure out who plays which role in advance and be more strategic and you might be able to take into account your toner. So you might be a rainmaker and a go-getter going out together to see a mystery controller, what does that mean?
BRIAN 36:11
First and foremost, do not hijack the meeting. You could just do all the talking. Your mission controller is going to take more, by the way, extrovert versus introvert. Extroverts talk to think. Introverts think talking, is very important.
BRIAN 36:28
Extroverts talk to think. They process out loud. Introverts like to first think and then talk and it means a slight lag, often after you’ve asked a question, sometimes a long lap, right? And the extroverts can end up filling the space needed for introverts to think and then respond.
BRIAN 36:52
We introverts end up speeding up our thought process to be in the rhythm of discussions where we would have preferred to slow down and think, right? But if we do take the time, that gets filled in. So extroverts have to be very patient with a mission controller.
BRIAN 37:09
I interviewed a mission controller fundraiser years ago. I had never, I mean, every time I asked a question, there was a huge pause. While she thought out her answer. Her answer was always really great and thoughtful. Sometimes you throw an answer out and you want it back.
BRIAN 37:26
I’m guilty in life all the time of repeating things because I say them quickly the first time because I’m trying to be in the rhythm. And then I say them a second time because I’m not sure I got them, right?
BRIAN 37:39
It’s really just in our DNA to do that if we’re introverts. So we look at a rainmaker go-getter, and we say, how are we going to deal with the mission controller? And how are we going to deal with each other?
BRIAN 37:52
Now my great partner in fundraising, as people are listening from Chicago, he’s Ron Vander Shai, who is the head of Northwestern seventh house for almost 40 years, and I worked with him for 30 on multiple campaigns, more than 1000 meetings together, he is a go-getter, like you, secondary kindred spirit, and kindred spirit, and mission controller.
BRIAN 38:11
He is the extrovert who was good at opening the meetings when sometimes it would be awkward for me and I would need just a little bit more time to settle into let’s say, we went to someone’s house to feel comfortable and get into the rhythm.
BRIAN 38:26
He also knew many of the donors better than the president. So he was very helpful. But I always say, oh would be amazing if you were a rainmaker because neither one of us had the analytics.
BRIAN 38:36
We were both intuitive. But we raised a ton of money, being intuitive, even seeing analytic donors, because to the point we made earlier. We catered to them we knew they were and such. So we can use them to figure out who our best partner might be.
BRIAN 38:52
If there’s a situation where all things equal, you can go with someone diagonally across the grid. Great, because that means that you’ve covered all your bases. But the reality for most of us is that there’s someone we have to go with who we’ve got. And then we figure out how that works for us.
RHEA 39:12
I asked him to lift something up when I was reading your book that just made me giggle about after the ask saying nothing and having a glass of water to take a sip. You might have too many sips. Let’s talk about the power of silence for a second.
BRIAN 39:28
Yes, I did not come up with this, but boy, I do love it. And this has been my number one prop in my entire career. Because once we asked for a gift, which is the hardest thing to do, it is the hardest. When you consider a gift of $10,000 for our capital campaign.
BRIAN 39:46
The next hardest thing is being silent while the donor considers it and there’s all this research on how little silence we can deal with before It gets so uncomfortable. We want to jump in.
BRIAN 40:02
And it’s so much less than the time it takes most people to think through and give you an answer, especially since it’s something they weren’t expecting. They’re waiting to hear from us. And once we tell them. They have to think through that in perspective on everything in their lives.
BRIAN 40:20
So the best thing to do is to say, would you consider a gift of $10,000 to our capital campaign? That gives you five seconds, generally. And that is often enough for someone to start to respond because I mean, people want to respond to cater to you.
BRIAN 40:43
But it may take them longer. Go-getters are probably going to respond immediately. Because they’re so quick. The kindred spirits might respond quickly to help you out. The analytics will take a little longer.
BRIAN 40:56
The mission controllers will probably take the longest so be planful and thoughtful and you need to be prepared. And sometimes that can be 20 seconds to a minute. I’ve heard some outrageous amounts of time, where you just sit in silence.
RHEA 41:08
Oh, my gosh! As a go-getter, it is because of skin crawl. You know what, I’ve also done it. You just got it. Be quiet.
BRIAN 41:16
It’s a conversation. As I say, look at the conversation. Eventually, the person has to respond.
RHEA 41:23
I know. It’s just like, throwing tennis balls at a new vacuum cleaner.
BRIAN 41:29
Someone once told me they waited something like 10 minutes. In this past year, I always ask when I train, I said what’s the longest amount of time you’ve had to sit in silence? And someone said it was almost 10 minutes. Oh, it was a couple. And they were just looking back and forth.
RHEA 41:50
Oh, my gosh! It’s like, you know, they’re having a conversation with their eyes. And you’re like, I don’t know what’s happening right now. Right? Yeah.
BRIAN 41:57
I think the person finally said, would you like me to leave the room?
RHEA 42:03
Brian, the thing that I also want to uplift here, especially for the new fundraisers is that often. I mean, you’re not asking on the first or second meeting, like you’ve gone through a series of meetings. You may know why you’re there. You know, either you’re there. And well, you have more money than you have time. So they’ve spent this much time with you. They’re going to give you a gift. It’s really just a question of negotiations.
BRIAN 12:29
Very few people will, I believe the best practice is if you’re going to ask for a gift when you set up the meeting, you should say that. This is me where I’d like to ask you to make a gift. So there’s no surprise.
BRIAN 42:40
You’re not just turning the meeting to, oh! And now I’d like to ask you for a gift. They’re waiting for it. And very few people will take that meeting if they don’t intend to give a gift. And so at the end of the day, it’s really how much they’ll give, not if they’ll give.
BRIAN 42:53
I think I’ve gotten the gift. And people may take some time. They may say, well, I might need a few months before I can decide or something. But I think I’ve gotten some gifts 99% of the time, either at the end of that meeting or in the future.
BRIAN 43:08
I can count on one hand, the number of people who said I’m really not going to do anything. That’s uncomfortable for them so why come to meetings to do that? Why waste your time? And how awkward?
RHEA 43:24
I mean, I will say I’ve never gone into a solicitation meeting, you know, having done my homework without a gift of some kind. Now, it wasn’t always the amount I wanted, necessarily, or had intended. But there was like, otherwise, why would you spend this much time with me? Right? No one has that much time to waste.
BRIAN 43:41
Well, I will say I had. So I worked for my alma mater for many years. And they had a women’s committee made up of rather elderly ladies, mostly at this point. They had, I mean, they were young in 1948 or something. But by 1980.
RHEA 43;57
They were all young at one point, Brian.
BRIAN 43:59
Yes, exactly! A lot of widows. And I did find. I finally realized there were a few who just loved meeting with me but weren’t going to be donors at the level that would have made my time with them make sense. And I would ask here and there and they put me off and I finally had to move on. So there were few.
RHEA 44:24
That’s what you get for being so delightful.
BRIAN 44:31
Well, I’ll share that. I went to Brandeis, which has a large Jewish philanthropy and fun sounding and such. And so there were a lot of old Jewish boobies, as we would say in our world. And I think many of them wanted to set me up with their granddaughters.
RHEA 44:46
So when I first moved to New York, I lived in a side town before he got fancy and I was like riding up and down the elevators. And every week I swear to you, someone, some Jewish grandmother would try to set me up with her grandson. Like, yes, you’d like a nice girl.
BRIAN 45:01
Nice young gentleman. So yeah, I did get some of that.
RHEA 45:08
Okay, I think we have time for one question. So Erica has a really great question. Erica, do you want to jump in here with yours?
ERICA 45:15
Sure! I’ll jump right in. Hi, Brian. So insightful. I got the books, I can take the quiz.
BRIAN 45:24
By the way, you can take the quiz without the book. I don’t want you to feel you have to buy my book. You take the quiz. That’s free for everyone. And then hopefully, you want to buy the book.
ERICA 45:35
Okay, we’re just beginning to make that major gift asks. We’ve had a bit of it in the past. But I’m curious to know what you’re talking about being in a meeting with somebody, there’s an expectation that I asked will be made, right? Like why else are you at a meeting together? Can you provide an example of how you would like to frame up that invitation to meet where you intend to ask?
BRIAN 46:00
Yeah, I would. Well, first of all, how do you communicate that as part of the asking style as well? So I always email. Email has been my friend for 20-plus years because I don’t like the phone. I find it very awkward. Ron, my buddy, always would just pick up the phone.
BRIAN 46:20
And I always want to email and lay it out and say this is where we’re at. We know you care. Would you consider meeting with me? So I can talk about where we’re at and ask you for a more significant one if they’ve already given.
BRIAN 46:35
Their givers are already a more significant gift. I try not to ever discuss the amount before we actually meet but I want them to know, put it in that perspective. And that’s always would you consider. The ask is also would you consider a gift?
BRIAN 46:54
Because would you is conditional. And most people would consider what we’re asking them to do. Would you consider a gift? I’d never call it a pledge or a donation and investment, or a gift because it says positive things.
BRIAN 47:12
So I said the letter or the phone call might say would you consider meeting with me to discuss a more significant gift to the organization? You’ve been so supportive, etc. Does that answer your question?
RHEA 47:26
We have time for one last question, Sharon, jump in here and ask your question. And then we’ll have to wrap up. But right, we could talk to you for hours.
BRIAN 47:34
Sharon?
SHARON 47:35
Hi, Brian, I am curious about your perspective. We all know the importance of relationship building. It’s key. It’s the crux of all of this. But nowadays, after three years of the pandemic, and everyone’s so busy, it is really hard to have multiple meetings and build those relationships with certain donors, especially if you’ve joined an organization and only have had a say the last pandemic years.
SHARON 47:59
So sometimes we feel like we just landed it, they’ll get on the phone, they’ll get on Zoom, or they’ll do that coffee, and we don’t have so much time to build up to an ask. Do you have any perspective on that moment? Should you just leave it? Can you do it the right way?
BRIAN 48:14
So a couple of things. First of all, boy, are we lucky that we had video technology for fundraising during the pandemic. Because there’s no question that meeting in person is ideal. We never could always meet in person.
BRIAN 48:30
And we always had to default to the phone, or maybe an email conversation, which was worse. I mean, I will default to the phone, from meeting in person, even though I don’t like phones.
BRIAN 48:39
But having video chat really helped because there’s nothing like seeing the other person’s face and being able to read it. So thank God we have that. And many people with closed, countless gifts, live video chat, but we get less time. Right?
BRIAN 48:52
We’re not gonna have an hour on a video chat an hour and a half over lunch or two hours. So we are learning less. But almost to your point, I think people are expecting a bit less because lives are busy.
BRIAN 49:03
And I think my rule of thumb and fundraising forever has been if it’s on my mind, share it with the donor. So I might say I know, things are busier. Exactly what you’re asking me, I know things are busier. But there’s nothing like spending time together to get to know you and for you to know the organization.
BRIAN 49:24
I would love to spend that time. If you don’t have as much time, do you have a shorter amount of time? And how do you feel if we’ve spent less time together and then I asked you for a gift? I asked permission to ask.
BRIAN 49:37
So I might say that I’m not sure where the donors at because I haven’t had as much of that rich interaction with them. I will say, I know you love the organization. You’ve got a history and such, but I don’t know if you’re ready.
BRIAN 49:51
Right? I know the pandemic has thrown everything up in the air. Would you be ready for me to ask you or would you rather I wait? Most of the time, that alone helps people come to the table because you’re giving them the space, and they can come to you.
BRIAN 50:07
And so I’m finding that I’ve always felt that that was a good way. And with the pandemic, and all the challenges you’re talking about now, which are real, I think it’s helpful to just put it all on the table. And I think you can get far that way.
RHEA 50:21
Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think kind of signposting how much time you’re actually going to ask for is really important, especially on super busy days. But it’s so interesting. I’ve actually done a bit of fundraising recently with tech people, and they operate completely differently.
RHEA 50:39
Like all of the playbook is out the window. They’re like, text me, let me know how much you want. And I’ll let you know. I’m like, like, I don’t know how to deal with this. But like, we’ve landed like, seven-figure gifts via tax, it’s bananas.
RHEA 50:54
So all to say that I think that there’s a whole other generation coming out, that is different, right? They’re much less likely to want to have a conversation. They’re much less likely to want to spend actual one-on-one time.
RHEA 51:10
And then depending on where they already tech finance kind of comes to me as two obvious examples, much more analytical and much more likely to make quick decisions with fewer touch points.
BRIAN 51:21
Yes, yes, yes! So things are moving faster because everything in life moves faster. Now…
RHEA 51:27
Yeah, I feel like we need to do a case study on raising money from tech people because I just did this experience. And it was wild. I was like, literally everything I know about fundraising has now just been so short-circuited.
RHEA 51:38
I don’t know anything. Okay, last question from me, Brian. This is a fun one. If you had a metaphorical billboard, you could communicate anything to the world, what would be on your billboard?
BRIAN 51:49
I was just gonna say facts matter. But that’s going down another rabbit hole kind of. There’s we’re struggling so much on that front. There’s so much ugliness. I don’t know, related to fundraising, of course, I’d always say ask the matters.
BRIAN 52:02
You’ve got to get out there. Get out there, just do it. Or I’d actually we have, we came up with all these slogans when we started. And one of them my son throws back in my face all the time.
BRIAN 52:13
So as any good child, he asks for money all the time, can I count money for this? Can I have money for that? And I often say no. And he’ll say, well, as you say, would say, dad, don’t ask, don’t get.
RHEA 52;27
Oh, God. They’re listening. Those kids.
BRIAN 52:30
Yeah, he’s listening. Don’t ask, don’t get. So I might say that. Don’t ask, don’t get.
RHEA 52:34
Yeah, that’s a good one. Right? Don’t let the fear of rejection keep you from asking for sure. Okay, Brian, if folks want to get in touch with you, or if they want to take the quiz, where can they do that? I will make sure it’s in the show notes. But where would it be the best place for folks to connect with you?
BRIAN 52:48
quiz.askingmatters.com It’s a great place to start. And you can go to briansabre.com, as well.
RHEA 52:58
Very good! I’ll make sure it’s all in the show notes, Brian. Thank you so much. This is so funny. Oh, my go-getters out there.
BRIAN 53:06
And now that I spent an hour with all of you. I’m going to sit with my word puzzles.
RHEA 53:12
I will tell you about today’s world but it’s a good one. I got it in three.
BRIAN 53:15
Yes, it was a good word. Yes. Okay.
RHEA 53:18
All right. Take care everyone. Bye-bye.
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