Join me and my guests Christal Cherry and Renee Rubin Ross to talk about doing DEIAB work right. Often our boards lag behind the efforts of the staff and this dynamic duo helps to bring your board up to speed on issues of equity and inclusion. We talk about the myth of diversity vs. wealth, how to work with folks who don’t think they have a problem and their tactics to start boards on this work. We get into the nitty gritty of time commitment, cost and eventual transformation. We left no stone unturned!
To learn more about Christal: www.theboardpro.com
To learn more about Renee: www.therosscollective.com
To learn more about their framework: equityinthecenter.org/aww
Fund Your Strategic Vision: https://brookerichie-babbage.lpages.co/fund-your-strategic-vision/?ck_subscriber_id=1199983809&utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Not+for+me…%20-%209617030#featuresservices-1
Quote from Christal “This whole myth about people of color not having the money to serve on boards or not having the resources or the connections needs to go”
Episode Transcript
RHEA WONG 00:06
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners! It’s Rhea Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today, we’re talking about doing DEIAB work right with Crystal Cherry and Dr. Renee Rubin Ross. So we are going to hear about all the things. Welcome to both of you.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 00:27
Oh, thank you for having us.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 00:28
Thank you so much.
RHEA WONG 00:29
So just to give us a little bit of context. Crystal Cherry is the principal and CEO of The Board Pro. And Dr. Renee Rubin Ross is the founder and CEO of The Ross Collective, which is a consulting firm. Tell us a little bit about yourselves and your path to this work. Renee, let’s start with you.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 00:45
Sure! So, I think of myself as the kid in the back of the library, as a small kid who did not feel included, and always really started thinking about what is inclusion, who is included, and who has power.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 01:00
And bringing that forward a number of years in my work, I run the Cal State East Bay Nonprofit Management Certificate Program. I teach board development and my students who are a rainbow of people from black, indigenous Latin X, and all kinds of different backgrounds asked me questions about board composition.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 01:21
And really how do we do so much better in terms of shifting power? And that’s really what got me to be interested in working with crystal. I will tell you about the work that we’re doing. But what’s been exciting is that we are sharing this work with a lot of people and finding a lot of people are interested in building boards that foster belonging.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 01:45
Yes! Hey, thanks, Renee! Hey, Rhea. Yeah, I am excited to be here. I am a 23-year trained nonprofit fundraiser gone rogue.
RHEA WONG 01:59
We like the troublemakers and upstarts here at Nonprofit Lowdown.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 02:03
Yes! I’m a professional troublemaker. So yeah, I decided that I didn’t want to do fundraising anymore, that I felt like my voice can be used in many other different ways than other talents and skills.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 02:13
In fact, I decided to use a lot of the talents or skills that I acquired and learned as a fundraiser to go into what work, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 02:19
And so everything that I do with voice and teach in terms of teaching them about having a voice, learning how to recruit new members, how to onboard them, how to build relationships, how to tell their story, how to advocate permission, how to raise funds, all those things I was doing as a fundraiser anyway.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 02:37
So it was just kind of a natural transition for me to go over to working with boards. And I love it. And as Renee has mentioned, there’s a lot of work in this space because a lot of our boards need help. Many of our boards are clueless. Many of our boards are ill-equipped.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 02:52
And certainly, now a lot of our boards are searching for answers in terms of how we bring our boards around. Like how do we bring in more diverse board members? How do we make them feel welcomed once they are here?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 03:06
How do we make them feel like they want to stay and that they belong in this space? And so the work that Renee and I do it right now is relevant and exciting. And it seems to be resonating with the clients that we’re working with.
RHEA WONG 03:18
Yeah, absolutely! So, Crystal, you and I had met actually, because we were both speakers at a conference in Erie, Pennsylvania. Shout out to the Keystone conference. But I’d love to build on that.
RHEA WONG 03:28
Because I think diversity has always kind of been a topic and then post George Floyd I think has become top of mind front burner for a lot of people. It feels like there’s a bit of a scramble. It’s like, oh, well, this is an important thing to do now, but like we don’t really know how to do it.
RHEA WONG 03:46
So before we get into the details of how we might do it, what are some of the early signs that a board might be ready to engage in this kind of work? Because we know that it’s not a matter of just putting a bunch of folks on color on a board and calling it a day, there’s work that has to be done before. So talk to me about what that looks like.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 04:07
Well, there are subtle signs, and then there’s the mass exodus of people who are bouncing off the board angry and mad because of the microaggressions because they feel like they’re being excluded.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 04:19
So that is the overt sign that, hey, wait a minute. Something has gone awry. And then there are the subtle signs, where people stopped coming to meetings, and people are not really engaged.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 04:30
We had a client who reached out to us and I mean, as Crystal describes what was happening was that there were several, there were some conversations there were several women of color who left the board. There was nothing really too subtle about it.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 04:44
They did not feel comfortable. They did not feel a sense of belonging. We’re all volunteering on these boards. And I think now more than ever, we’re really thinking about do I feel that people care about me and see me in all different kinds of ways.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 04:58
So there was a sense of urgency on this board to really shift their culture. And one thing, we talked to a prospective client, and we said to him, well, do you have a feeling of belonging on your board, and we talked about belonging compared to welcome.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 05:15
Welcome is kind of top-down. Like, okay, everybody! I’m the leader. I’m welcoming you. But let me just be more of a circle. We each see each other. And we each come into that circle and feel that we are seeing and we said to this white man, is there a sense of belonging on your board?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 05:33
And he said, oh, yeah, of course, there is, of course. And then we said, well, having a symbol I asked my three friends, and they feel like they belong. And so some of this is really going beyond your usual suspects to or let’s say you’re the three people that somebody might be used to talking to, and widening the circle to assess, is there a sense of belonging here?
RHEA WONG 05:56
So I’d love to build on that. How do you start to engage in this kind of conversation and this kind of work if people don’t think that they have a problem? Right? To your point, Renee. about this white man is like, everything’s great. Yes, right!
RHEA WONG 06:11
So what do you do when there might be limited appetite for doing this kind of grip because it’s hard work? And it takes a lot of effort and a lot of introspection.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 06:22
There’s always going to be some resistance. Most times, when people reach out to us is because they do realize they have a problem. But it might be the board chair. It might be the executive director who’s reaching out, but there might be some members on that board who don’t feel that there’s really a reason for us to come in and work with them.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 06:38
So for them, this has to be voluntary work. We can’t certainly force this work on anyone. And we saw during some of the clients that we were working, we saw that some of our training, people just stop coming.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 06:49
Those who felt too uncomfortable, and we tell people, you got to feel uncomfortable. It’s okay. We’ve all been uncomfortable before. And in fact, this comfort is necessary in order for us to grow.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 07:01
So you kind of have some people who are going to resist or who are going to stop coming, there’s nothing we can do about those people, right? But for those people who are willing to sit it out, and say, okay, I’m not really sure why I’m feeling this.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 07:12
I’m feeling a little weird, but I’m gonna hang in there and just kind of see where it’s going. We just tell them to sit there and let the process unfold. And we find is like, for instance, with this one client we work with the board chair was very resistant.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 07:24
He didn’t like the view, when we were talking about white supremacy, and culture, he resisted all that. Then as time went on, and we started doing some of the work, he softened, right? And he realized, hey, wait a minute.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 07:35
There are a lot of things you guys are talking about that I’ve never thought about. I never considered it. I’ve never seen my board member in that light. And so he came actually came around.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 07:44
So I did say that for those who are resisting, initially, if they just sit still and kind of let the process unfold. For the most part, you’ll start to see people, the light bulb will come on, and people will start to engage.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 07:57
Sometimes, people have different motivations. This is relational work. So as we work with the board over time, not in one session, but over, let’s say three to six months, it’s about building relationships.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 08:11
And one of the parts of our process, after we built trust is starting to share race stories. And people share some information and stories about their lives, that they really haven’t had the opportunity to talk about people of white people, black people, or Asian Americans, what is your experience of race? And we really set it up in a very interesting way.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 08:35
And then what’s happened from that? Actually, people said, we want to do more of this. It’s like, okay, but what the reason for doing it is not to stop there is really to say, okay, now you have you’re building your trust, and you want to go up to how do you make this into policies and weights shifting systems in your organization?
RHEA WONG 08:57
So Renee, could you speak a little bit more because we talk a lot about shifting culture, but culture is read-only, right? Culture is supported by practices and policies underneath it.
RHEA WONG 09:10
So what are some of the ways or the start with what are some of the policies that make people feel that they don’t belong? And conversely, what are some of the policies that do make people feel that they…
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 09:20
Well, Crystal and I had a really interesting experience where there were some policies around how much vendors needed to outlay ahead of time. And it was really inequitable.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 09:36
And it seemed like a blunt it was something that happened with this organization that we experienced, and we started talking about it in terms of what assumptions like, okay, a vendor is supposed to put more than $1,000 on their credit card vendor consultant ahead of time.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 09:52
Some board members who are pretty wealthy, may not think about that. And yet it is something that is inequitable. So how do you set up a policy where everybody feels like they can participate?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 10:07
We haven’t even in our work together, we have experienced bias. And I would say I’ve felt different even in working with Renee and how in some instances and how she was treated and how I was treated.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 10:19
There were times when in terms of travel, like when they mentioned, there were times in terms of travel, where we were asked to pay for travel upfront, which I don’t feel comfortable doing, I’m not in a position to put $2,000 on my credit card, and wait for your finance office to process my reimbursement 30 days later, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 10:39
And so I asked for payment upfront for them to book my travel, and they resist it. And so there is a difference in terms of how we’re treated. There is a difference because of the wealth gap in this country. I’m a single mom. I do this full-time.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 10:53
So my funds are tied up in emergency funds in the event something happens for my family and my son. And I don’t want to tie up credit cards playing travel for client use. And so we had a conversation, and it was not comfortable.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 11:07
And I had to call them out. So it’s just those kinds of things. And I’m a consultant. So imagine as a board member, being on a board where you’re asked, okay, we’re going to have our board retreat up in Montana, use them in Florida, we’re going to Montana, which means more than likely your airfare is going to be high.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 11:23
Your travel is going to be high. Your lodging in the cabin in Montana is going to be high. And so it could be a couple of 1000 miles and you expect me to put that out and then wait to be reimbursed. So those are the kinds of things that make people feel like this may not be the right board for me.
RHEA WONG 11:37
Yeah, that’s a really good example. So tell me a little bit. I think there’s a really interesting, and I almost want to imagine the tension between you can either have diversity, or you can have the financial capacity, but you can’t have both. Crystal, we’ll start with you. I’d love for you to dispel this myth for us.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 11:55
Absolutely! And I just hosted a panel of Latino professionals last week for National Hispanic Heritage Month, where we had Latino professionals who sit on boards and say that this myth about Latinos not being invited to be on boards because they don’t have the means to make donations to the organization, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 12:14
That they would proceed as receivers or charity as opposed to giving to charity. And they refuted that whole myth and just said if we were asked more if people took time to get to know us and realize that while we do have a lot of our resources diverted back to our families and our home countries, many of us do have the resources to serve on board.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 12:34
They’re just not asking. You’re not interested. You don’t see us. We’re invisible. And so we know that this is not true. We know that there are people of color in every hue, black, white, and Asian, who have the need to serve on boards.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 12:47
And it’s just a matter of identifying those white folks. And then for those who don’t even have the financial needs, Renee and I have this conversation about giving the get. For those who don’t have the funding, there are so many other things you can bring to a board, even if you don’t have the financial capabilities to make a $5,000 donation.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 13:03
You have connections. You have in-kind resources. You have your own skills and your talents that you bring to a board that is worth a lot of money. So this whole myth about people of color not having the money to serve on the board and not having the resources or the connections to serve on the board needs to go away.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 13:22
And I just want to say yes, Crystal and I are having an argument and ongoing argument about given get and we need to write up our argument into a blog post because we’re just going back and forth.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 13:33
I think the challenge is we understand that nonprofits need funds in order to function. And so there is an attempt. There’s some kind of temptation to say, okay, we are going to have this give or get 5000 1000, 10,000, or whatever it is.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 13:47
At the same time, we have a wealth gap in our country. And so it is fundamentally inequitable to expect that every single person is going to contribute the same amount. And so as Crystal says, are there other ways to contribute? Can you make…
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 14:02
I personally do not. I support a meaningful contribution. But not necessarily a given get. And, yeah, the challenge of contributing isn’t just money. It’s also a time in some of the conversations that we’ve had with people. It’s some of it has been around.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 14:22
We’d like to get to your meeting, but we can’t because we are working at that time. So really thinking about doing more listening to think about how can you bring in wider participation and that’s really some of that cultural work to not assuming everyone is like me and can just…
RHEA WONG 14:41
I think it’s a really excellent point because I actually remember having a board and scheduling meetings after work because I had a large professional board and in like, part of it is that a lot of the board members were older and their kids had grown up.
RHEA WONG 14:58
And I don’t have children so like it never occurred. heard to me necessarily that at 6 PM, it might be bath time and I would have to arrange for childcare. I was like, oh, right, of course. Right? That’s the thing. I’m curious, like, what’s the debate going on between the two of you? Because I’d love to weigh in on this debate. I’m sure I have opinions about this.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 15:19
I’m a fundraiser. So I know, my mindset is that I know that nonprofits need money, not only to serve the clients that they serve but also to keep the lights on to pay staff to have software, to be able to buy software, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 15:35
So that we can manage relationships with that donors because I’ve worked in many nonprofits where they say, well, we don’t have the money. You got to invest in fundraising to yield the results and the fruit from fundraising.
CRYSTAL CHERRY15:46
So my mindset is one that a lot of nonprofits rely on boards to make donations to the organizations. And so particularly for the… and most nonprofits in this country are small to midsize.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 15:58
They’re not the big ones, right? They’re not the big ones that have lots of money and lots of resources.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 16:02
So the small mid grassroots nonprofits, those boy donations can make a huge if anyone makes the $1,000 or 3000, or $5,000 donation at the beginning of the year, that gives that nonprofit some cash flow at the beginning of the year to kind of get things going until they can get their donors warmed up and get them in the cycle of giving.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 16:22
And so when your board is not getting started, the fact that it doesn’t look the foundations and all that kind of stuff. When your board is not giving, it doesn’t show that they have skin in the game. It doesn’t show that you put your money where your mouth is, and it shows that maybe they don’t understand what the organization has.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 16:37
It’s a business, just like you have to have employees and you have to burn lights. And well, these days, we don’t have offices as many as we used to. But we used to have air conditioning and lights and all those kinds of things. But human resources needs.
RHEA WONG 16:50
Is it attention Crystal that you believe that every board member needs to give and at a certain level?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 16:57
I do. And that’s what they do for some organizations for whom they can say to be on our board, we’re asking for $5,000. And that means if you can’t give it and that’s not the right on for you, there are other boards, that might say just make a meaningful donation.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 17:12
So I believe both. I believe that their organizations have a right to put a minimum amount. And if that amount doesn’t fit my budget, then I just need to move on to another organization. Renee says…
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 17:24
Listen, I think we have to confront our history. And there is so to everything from the G.I. Bill, suppressing the wealth of people of color. And so it’s fundamentally unfair to say every single person, regardless of race should contribute the same amount, understanding that not everybody has had the same opportunity up to now.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 17:51
Here’s the pushback. So we say that, right? Everybody can make their own mountains. So you got John, who’s given $30,000. And you have Jim, who’s given the $1,000. Right? Who’s gonna get the seat closest to the podium when the gala happened? Right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 18:11
We had to drop everything when the phone rings, and we said, oh, John’s on the phone, that $30,000 board members on the phone, as opposed to the $500. He’s going to put this stuff on hold, so he can answer that $30,000 board member.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 18:25
So you start getting preferential treatment when you start seeing that there are some board members who can make huge donations. They get all the perks in the minis. And then this little peasant who can only make $500 donations, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 18:37
We’re just regular board members who don’t get any perks and bedding. And I’ve seen it happen. So I think if we played it, even the playing field where we all giving 1000, we’re all giving 5000.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 18:47
Then if you want to give more you can, but at least I know I’m at the table with the same folks. And we’re all giving at the same level. I have just as much to say as anybody else.
RHEA WONG 18:56
Oh, my gosh! Ladies, this is such a juicy topic. And the thing is, I actually, I can see both sides of it. But I will say as a fundraiser, I’m on the Crystal train here. Okay to play y’all because at the end of the day, if you can’t give, we have an advisory board.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 19:15
Okay. And I’m not going to be the one to say money, listen, we had our Mondo Samaya, who was on the panel last week and said money is power, as Crystal is saying. I’m not saying I don’t see that.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 19:27
I’m just saying I envision a different world over there somewhere where organizations really deeply value the contributions of all people, whatever they’re bringing. Maybe we’re not in that world yet. But I gotta wish that we were and I gotta acknowledge saying that it’s not unfair. I’m like crying because it really is not fair.
RHEA WONG 19:47
No, I agree. And the thing is when I talk about the messy middle, right? There is a world where we want like perfect harmony and equity and everyone is like Kumbaya and it’s all good. I think we’re not there yet.
RHEA WONG 20:00
I think we’re kind of stumbling our way through, like, what does it look like on the path to that world and in the world that I live in? You got to keep the lights on. And I hear you, right? Because I would love a world where we value time as equally as we value money.
RHEA WONG 20:14
Be great. But time doesn’t pay the bills. So, I don’t know. It’s this creative tension of the world as I want it to be in the world as it is today. So, I’m happy to weigh in on this conversation.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 20:30
And listen, I can see both sides, too. I’m just gonna keep talking about the world that I want to see. Yes, I know many other people want to see it, too. I try and move there. But what’s gonna happen?
RHEA WONG 20:41
Yeah, I think that’s a beautiful point. Okay, let’s talk a little bit about the process. So when organizations sign up to work with both of you, what is different for them after the engagement? What’s the transformation that I could expect as an organization? Crystal, let’s start with you.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 21:02
Oh, let’s see. I’m thinking about some of the clients that we’ve worked with afterward, who said I am talking about things I’ve never even thought about before in terms of my own family because we do our whole exercise where we do race stories when people start sharing about their background, and where they grew up, how they were taught about race or not taught about race.
CRYSTAL CHERRY21:22
And so and then people start saying, oh, my goodness, I didn’t know that about your background. I didn’t know that about your tradition. And so people started looking at each other differently, like, oh, well, I’m really starting to see who’s sitting next to me at the board table.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 21:33
And I’m also looking at myself because one of the things I challenged him to do is to take a selfie. Let’s take a look at your own cells and see where you stand on some of these issues. So I think after we enter, we do our race caucusing.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 21:45
And we just do what we have. We watch videos. We discuss articles. I mean, this is the whole big thing that we do. I think people start to really kind of see that common human hood if you will. I don’t know if that sounds kind of geeky.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 21:59
But I think people just kind of realize, wait a minute, I’m saying this Deepak. I’m saying as Lindsey. We just grew up in two different ways. But we all want the same things. And in terms of inclusion and belonging, everybody wants to be seen.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 22:13
Everybody wants to know, okay, I’m a single mom, or I’m a mom of young children. And so, therefore, they’re not going to have meetings at six o’clock on a Thursday evening, when they know I have to run home and make dinner.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 22:24
Well, I have older parents that I’m taking care of, or they’re not going to have meetings way out in the suburbs when I don’t have a car. And they see me. They know that I’m on this board, and the things that matter to me matter to them.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 22:37
And those are the kinds of things that regardless of whether you grow up Deepak and we grew up Crystal, you grew up, Christina, we all want those things we want to be seen.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 22;45
We worked with an organization they were going through it, they had a white founder who was our old-fashioned. She could not talk about race, even though the organization mostly served black and brown clients. And we got the board to start talking about race.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 23:04
They had this leadership transition and the person that they hired next was a woman of color as their executive director. And we felt like, wow, we really felt like this was a win for us and for the organization in the sense of the definition of equity. People who are closest to the problems are weighing in on the solutions and systems are shifted. So, yeah!
RHEA WONG 23:27
All right, Renee, I’d love to dig into that. Because post-George Floyd, I think everyone was out here being like, we need to hire the executive director of color. And then we saw that they get hired, and then they would quickly leave because it was not…
RHEA WONG 23:44
Like they hadn’t cleaned the house before they move the new folks in. Right? So Renee, if you could speak a little bit about what the board has to do in order to ready themselves and set up an executive director of color for success?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 23;59
Thank you so much for that point. I really appreciate it. You’re absolute. So this is the cultural work of starting to, I don’t even like the word diversity because it doesn’t really get you that far.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 24:13
I really use equity to say with the definition that I just gave really think about how we build a more equitable, organization, society, community, and all of that. So in terms of this organization, we didn’t solve all problems, but we did get them talking about race, racial inequities.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 24:34
And so it’s doing that and you could do it at a demographic survey of your board and your clients and your staff. But then what does this mean? And what are the implications of that?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 24:46
And so starting to have those conversations, what the last step of our process after we’ve opened up the conversations is for them to build a plan because this is something that you’re going to be talking about it all of the time, right? Or, at least a lot of the time.
RHEA WONG 25:02
Crystal, there’s anything to add?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 25:04
Yeah, and I think when you bring on a new person, particularly a person of color, I think that board chair and that new CEO, that new Executive Director needs to build a serious rapport and has a real come to Jesus talks about the leadership of the organization, because we face it, the board chair, and the CEO or the executive director has the two most important stakeholder groups are the organization’s staff and board, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 25:27
And so these two people are not working in tandem if they cannot see one another and a vision for the organization and then model what that leadership looks like. Right? When we do see each other we do realize is a white board chair and a black executive director. And that matters.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 25:44
And we see color. We know that matters. And they know each other, and then they’re working, and they’re having standard meetings, and they really have come together on what their work should look like in the next year, three years, five years.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 25:58
I think that makes a huge difference. That relationship between those two top leaders can make or break an organization. And so I think when you’re going to start bringing in new people, you want to make sure that who you’re bringing on that there’s an attentional effort to look for you get to know each other and to build trust from the very start.
RHEA WONG 26:15
So Crystal, talk me through this a little bit because I’m thinking about the world that we want to live in. I don’t know that we’ve seen many examples of organizations that have done DEIAB well right?
RHEA WONG 26:29
Like, is there an exemplar? Or is there a framework that we can start working towards? Because I think we talk a lot about what it’s not, but I don’t know that I’ve seen examples of what it is. Does that make sense?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 26:42
Ah, I mean, you have to decide there are lots of di approaches. I mean, the one that Renee and I like is awake, doing all the work by the equity in the center. And folks get really weird about the word work. Don’t trip about that.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 26:54
Just let’s focus on what that stage and what that lever means. Because we do believe, I do believe that nonprofit work. There’s this cog that moves in order for this car to move. every stakeholder group has to push the lever to make this thing move, right?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 27:09
And so if the board doesn’t push the lever, or if the staff doesn’t push that lever, then this thing stops. Everything freezes, right? I do believe that it’s a wake-to-walk-to-work model that works for nonprofits when it comes to DEI because, in the awake stage, this is kind of this realization that wait a minute, something is not right, or numbers are off.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 27:28
We don’t have the right people at the table. We need more people of color. We need more women. We need more people who are who have disabilities at this table, right? Or people who are from our community who are homeless, or who have been homeless, or who have been teenage moms.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 27:41
So it’s just kind of a numbers thing. When you disaggregate to gather data, you realize that no one’s gonna look right. You have representation, and then that woke stage, you start putting things together.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 27:50
Okay, we need to look at taking a look at our policies to see if there are inequities in them. Let’s start doing some of that work. Put together a task force or whatever. I know the task was things I was kind of overrated, but then put together a group of people who are willing to look at what’s going on and start putting some things together.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 28:06
And then once we do that in the work state, let’s figure out how we’re going to sustain it like, how are we going to make sure that we’re doing what we said we were going to do? Are we going to have some kind of assessment at the end of the year?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 28:17
Is there somebody that’s going to hold us accountable? So I think you just need to embrace whatever model works for you. I like the wake-to-walk-to-work model because I think it addresses all of the things that an organization needs to do when they’re doing DEI work. And helping them to send to equity.
RHEA WONG 28:34
Got it! So if I’m listening to both you and I say this sounds great, I’m ready to do it. Renee, can you walk us through what the engagement looks like? And I’m thinking really nitty gritty, like, what is the time commitment? What is the frequency of meetings? Especially, Crystal, you say taskforce and like, I’m getting like PTSD. I’m like, no, no, no, please don’t, and pricing.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 28:56
Right! As Crystal mentioned, first of all, we would always do a consult, kind of assess that readiness. I just wanted to say just building on everything that’s been said so far. It’s like we are really wanting to hear that people are interested in and open to shifting power. That is really the goal.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 29:16
So this isn’t about statements. It’s actually about shifting power in your organization. We do an assessment., We do the selfie. And so the whole process is somewhere between four to nine months and out of probably four to six months.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 29:31
And at least four or five meetings, starting with the assessment survey, share the data, reflect on it, talk it through, and begin to do these race conversations of race stories that we model ourselves as a cross-race team.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 29:47
And then we do raise caucus meetings where there’s a white caucus that comes together of BIPOC caucus that meet separately and for in the idea is really to create some safety for each of those groups.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 30:02
And for the white people to be able to process whatever is coming up, knowing that the goal is really to move towards being a more equitable, anti-racist organization. And then come back together and build a plan for the future. So that is that’s the process. We’ve done a lot of the work virtually, and some of it in person, some of often that last planning meeting in person.
RHEA WONG 30:27
So how long does it generally take? What number of hours are you asking? Because I know a lot of people feel like they can’t get their boards to show up for the board work anyway. So adding something else on I feel like they should know on the front end what they’re really being asked to do.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 30:42
Well, this is a commitment, Rhea, and we hope most of the nonprofits we work with have budgets of 2 million and up. Our fees are anywhere from $10,000 to $40,000 depending on what’s needed of us.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 30:55
So we hope that if you’re willing to make that kind of financial investment your board is going to be there, it’s horrible to pay that kind of money. And if board members do not show up, right?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 31:04
And so it is a commitment. Renee and I do a lot of work upfront. We do interviews. We do surveys. We do a meeting with the executive director. We’re meeting with the board chair. We’re meeting with board members.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 31:13
So there’s a lot of work on the front end before we even start the work. And then the prep work for me and in terms of getting ready for our meetings, I speak about bias when he speaks about white supremacy.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 31:24
And then we do our race caucus in groups where we separate the boy by race. We do our race stories. And then in between, we give them homework, their videos for the wax, and there are articles for them to review. So it does require a commitment to time.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 31:36
And if you realize that this is a long journey, right? There’s no end to this journey. And if you’re really serious about making a change with your board and with your nonprofit, your folks are going to do this work along the way. So it’s a lot of upfront time for Renee and me. We spent a lot of time reviewing those surveys.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 31:53
We put together a findings report after we review or review the surveys and do our interviews. We present that back to the client. So this is what we’re discovering at this stage. And so then we’re sharing back with them along the way while we’re working with them what we’re seeing what we’re hearing.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 32:09
So there’s a lot of give and take on both ends. So it takes months and also trying to get everybody’s schedules together. So it’s holiday falls or the summertime falls, it could take this drag thing out, which is why it takes some time in six months.
RHEA WONG 32:20
Yeah, I know. I’m just thinking about having to organize a board to do anything. It’s just a nightmare. But the thing that you’re speaking about, which I think is just such a powerful tool is really around storytelling, a narrative, and sharing like who am I?
RHEA WONG 32:34
What are the stories that have shaped me as a person? And what are the stories that you can share with me so that I get to know and understand you as a person?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 32:44
I mean, we had someone who was Asian American, who started talking about the racism that she had experienced. And there are people on the board who said, I never knew that that had been your experience. And it was like this moment of, oh, wow.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 33:02
I’m really in my life and not in yours. And how do we start doing that perspective-taking so we can have more empathy for each other, which again, in the end, empathy is not the endpoint, but it is a really strong foundation.
RHEA WONG 33:15
Yeah!
CRYSTAL CHERRY 33:16
I think the reason why this works for Renee and me is. Being across the race teams helps in doing this work. And not only that, our personalities are very different, right? So Renee grew up very differently than I did. She is more conservative.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 33:28
She’s come from a conservative white family. I’m from New York City. As you can see, I’m type and kind of direct and bold. We respect each other’s backgrounds. We respect each other’s lived experiences, and we’re vulnerable.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 33:45
And that’s one of the things that we both decided when we started doing this work that we were going to be competent, and confident that we’re going to help. But we will also be willing to share our own vulnerabilities about our own feelings of whatever, insecurity, or how we grew up. And so I think because of all that it works for our clients.
RHEA WONG 34:04
And I have to say to you, I really appreciate the fact that you’re across the racial team because I often think when I’ve seen people hire folks, it’s a lot of times a person of color going in working with a predominantly white board.
RHEA WONG 34:17
And I think, as a white ally, it’s important to be able to have those conversations and not depend on the person of color, to have to carry that emotional burden and labor because Lord knows I’ve been there too. Alright, we have a question coming up from Deepak. Deepak, you want to unmute yourself and enter the conversation.
DEEPAK 34:36
Sure! Thank you so much. And thank you both Crystal and Renee and Rhea for hosting. My question is and I’ve been lucky to work with organizations where I’ve been on the management team where it is truly diverse, not only in terms of race and gender.
DEEPAK 34:49
We’ve had trans folks on management and on our board, so it’s been a great experience. But I’ve also been at the opposite end of the spectrum where it is a predominantly older white-dominated room and environment.
DEEPAK 35:00
And there is a conversation where, yes, oh! We need to do DEI work. And it’s like, number 45 on the agenda list, right? And it’s like, hey, we’ll check the box on it. Bring in the right person. Everyone gets a session, maybe have management go through the same type of training. And that’s great that it’s part of a conversation.
DEEPAK 35:17
It’s great that it’s made automated on the agenda. But how do you then have, I look at it as an opportunity then to actually like, get folks to convert to this type of work, right? And what have you both seen in those types of conversations where it’s not necessarily resistance, but it’s more apathy, which I think maybe sometimes it’s even worse, right?
DEEPAK 35:37
Because how do you actually get a true commitment to this work from typical white males that are just not thinking about this? They don’t have that empathy. They’re not thinking about it.
DEEPAK 35:47
Right? So what have you seen in your conversations and your work that has been the most effective methodologies to try to get the compensation to be more genuine and actually make a real, genuine impact?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 36:00
One of the things that we did was, we had a conversation with an arts organization about their mission, and who they were serving. And they were based in a white neighborhood. And we started talking with them about what would it mean to have a pop-up exhibit in a black area.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 36:20
And who are you trying to reach out to? And it was not an easy conversation, but it started to go to what is the mission of your organization. And who do you serve? And how do you remain relevant in the future?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 36:33
And I think there is a lever for saying, okay, if you just keep serving the same, if you’re a historically white organization, you keep serving the same white, small group of people, you may die out. And so as either change or die, maybe that sounds harsh.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 36:52
And also determined, it’s also determined by where the organization is located. So this organization that Renee is sharing about is in the Deep South, right? And so that makes a huge difference. We’ve seen a difference with clients.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 37:04
So I’ve flown to California where Renee is and work with clients there, a completely different kind of client, right? Much more liberal, much more progressive. And then you come down here too, I’m in Atlanta, we were down in Alabama, and you gotta get a completely different kind of client down there because of where there it is.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 37:22
So I think, on this board that we’re mentioning a lot of their board members were appointed by political figures. And so that’s a whole nother thing, right? I think it just depends. And so you’re gonna get more resistance sometimes in places like the Deep South, and sometimes you’re not going to be able to reach people.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 37:39
But it was there where we had black board members stand up and say, I don’t want to do this anymore. I’m trying to convince white people that I should be here. And if they don’t want me on this board. I can go to another board.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 37:54
And he got up and said that in the middle of the board meeting and everyone got quiet. And I was like, oh, it’s about to go down. Right? And everybody was just real quiet. And still and but it was kind of a moment, it was kind of a tipping point moment where everyone said, wow!
CRYSTAL CHERRY 38:10
And then the white folks started weighing in and saying we didn’t know you felt that way. And we were sorry that you felt that way. I didn’t realize we were making you feel that way. So I think it just depends on the client and depends on what the client is. And it depends on who’s that one, therefore, everyone is different.
RHEA WONG 38:26
So if I could just wrap that up as a boat, what I’m hearing from Renee is that maybe you also need to tie the work to something tangible that they care about, like survival, and also make it personal. Right?
RHEA WONG 38:39
Crystal to your point, I’m sure that they didn’t want their fellow board member to feel hurt or to feel excluded. But to make it really personal for them, making it is more of a sense of urgency for them rather than a box checked.
RHEA WONG 38:51
Would that be a good summary of… All right, ladies, this has been so fun. So as we sign off, the last two questions are for me. I’ve been asking folks this, so I’m gonna spring it on you. But I’m gonna start with Crystal because she’s a New Yorker. She’s ready for anything.
RHEA WONG 39:07
You had a metaphorical Billboard, and you could put anything on the Billboard to communicate to the world, what would be on your billboard? And then we’re going to make sure to get your information about how to find out more about you folks who want to work with you. So personal to you, what’s on your billboard, friend?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 39:22
Oh, gosh! Oh, a message to the world. I’m gonna say make the world a better place by giving back. Support a charity today. Support today that’s going to help change the lives of 1000s of people. And then by the way, if you need help with your board, contact The Board Pro.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 39:46
But it would be a word of encouragement to get that because we know that people who volunteer and give back make a huge difference in the world and then they become donors, right?
RHEA WONG 39:55
But they also feel good about themselves. Actually, it’s been proven that generosity and altruism help you live longer, so it’s actually I’m helping you. Help me help you.
CRYSTAL CHERRY 40:05
Right! I mean, the compassion that we saw, the empathy and compassion that we’ve seen in the last couple of years with all the craziness that’s going on has been tremendous. It has made a huge difference.
RHEA WONG 40:15
Alright, Renee to you, what’s on your billboard?
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 40:17
Oh, I got a lot of kinds of think. I would say, let’s build a shared future together. And you can go read Heather McGee, yeah!
RHEA WONG 40:29
All right, let’s build a shared future together. Okay, folks, we want to work with you, and find out more about the work, is The Board Pro the best way to get in touch?
CRYSTAL CHERRY 40:38
theboardpro.com
RHEA WONG 40:39
Okay, very good.
RENEE RUBIN ROSS 40:40
Well, therosscollective.com. Yeah!
RHEA WONG 40:43
Okay, The Ross Collective, we’ll make sure to put that information in the show notes for podcast listeners. In the meantime, thank you, both of you for all the good work that you’re doing, very needed. I’m sure you have more business than you can handle because Lord knows this is a hot, hot topic. Thanks to everyone who joined the call. Have a great week!
CRYSTAL CHERRY
Thank you, Rhea.
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