Join me as I chat with Brooke Richie-Babbage, Cindy Wagman, and Jess Campbell about “How to stop chasing donors and 10x your thinking.”
This episode feels a little different than past episodes not just because we’re coming to you from behind the steering wheel, but because these are some of my favorite non-profit ladies who really know their stuff when it comes to fundraising with the right mindset, the right strategies, and the right people in place. And they have the track record to prove that it works.
Grab your favorite road trip snacks and hop right in while we talk about how you can start attracting like-minded individuals who will fund your vision gladly, not because they feel pressured to do so out of guilt, obligation, or simply to get you off their backs. Discover:
- How you can change your scarcity mindset.
- How you can tell stories that your donors actually want to hear.
- How to fundraise without fear of rejection.
- How to make friends with people who have the capacity to help.
And so much more…
Buckle up, enjoy, and please leave a review if you learn something new!
Important Links:
https://brookerichiebabbage.com/
https://cindywagman.com/
https://www.outintheboons.me/
Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nonprofitlowdown/support
Episode Transcript
RHEA 0:00
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong.
Hey podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown.
I am laughing because I am in a car right now with three of my business besties. Some of you will know them, love them.
Brooke Richie-Babbage, Cindy Wagman, and Jess Campbell. I thought this was a perfect opportunity to talk about a topic that is so important, there’s a little bit of a bug up our butts about it, and we’re titling it, Don’t Be Don’t waste the pretty.
And don’t waste the pretty is about not wasting your time and energy chasing after donors, board members, partners, whoever, who are never going to be that into you. We spend so much time and energy doing that. Stop doing it.
JESS 0:55
When I was in college, I came home from a night out at the bars to a package from my mother. And inside the package was the book, He’s Just Not That Into You, a box of condoms, and a pink post it note that said, Don’t waste the pretty, and the pretty is you, underlined, mom.
And in this moment, at 2 a. m. It was her version of communicating
that
it’s not worth my time pursuing partners who are just not that into me. And this can apply to so much, but we see it in the non profit sector again and again, as Rhea mentioned, whether it’s funders, whether it’s partners, whether it’s board members.
And we have a lot to say on the topic, and so we’re going to get into it.
RHEA 1:43
Cindy, I know you have a lot to say on this topic of your ideal donor, and why it is that we spend so much time chasing down people who just are not that into us.
CINDY 1:54
In our organizations, we have this feeling like the money is out there. And we just need to tap into it. And so often we use the wrong lens to think of who or where the right sources are or who the right board members for us or what have you.
So we often try, look for people who have excess, right? Oprah has lots of money. She should just give it to us. Especially in Canada, Oh, all the banks have so much money. They should give it to us. And we use money. And what we think of as capacity as the lens in which we look at who should be supporting us or who should be involved in our organization.
Instead, we need to be looking at who cares, who gives a fuck. And that is the most important starting point. So don’t waste your time on the people or organizations or ways that people can get involved. If they’re not even at the same table, right? Your job, especially when it comes to fundraising is not to convince someone that your mission is worthwhile.
It’s to find the people who know that it’s worthwhile and to bring them into your organization. So don’t look at capacity. Don’t look at that board member, can they make this many introductions for us or give this amount? You want to find the people who are passionate and excited and convinced that you’re meant to know each other and be in the same orbit and then work with them to figure out the best way to build that support to, invest in the work that you’re doing and whatever that means for them.
RHEA 3:33
Jess asked about the role of fear. So a lot of times the reason why we keep chasing after people who frankly are not that into us is that we have fear about what happens if they don’t, what happens if they say no, I ever get. I’m gonna turn it over to you because I know you have a lot to say on the topic of fear.
BROOKE 3:55
I’m going to answer the question through the lens of my own experience as a founder, because I’ve navigated fear in that role for many a year. And what I’ll say is that, and for those of you who are founders out there, I’m sure that this will resonate. When I started building my organization, it felt very tied to me.
As a person, right? I founded the organization. I was very passionate about the mission, the hiring that I did. They were like, this is my team. These are like, we’re building this together. The programs that I run, it was really personal for me. And that meant that there was a fear that if I asked somebody for a donation and they said, no, it wasn’t that they were
saying, this just isn’t the vision for change that I have in the world, which is fine.
It’s that they were saying this thing that you’re building isn’t good, right? This thing that you’ve dedicated your passion that you believe in these people you’re hiring this thing That you care a lot about this work I just don’t see it. I don’t buy it. I don’t believe enough in it and that felt awful That felt like a rejection of me personally and It wasn’t I know that now but at the time You know Nobody wants to put themselves in a situation where they’re gonna be rejected, but I would do, instead of saying, Oh, I need to figure out how to pursue that fear or change the narrative in my head.
For a while, I would find other things to do instead of actually getting out there and building relationships with donors. I wouldn’t even talk to donors, potential donors, because I was like. If they say, but wait, what are you doing? That was so terrifying. I’d say, you know what? I’ll be ready to talk to donors when our marketing material is done, or I’ll be ready to talk to donors when we’ve revamped our website.
Everything was perfect. Then I’ll be ready when they cannot reject me, then I’ll be ready. And it was really only as I came to do two things one, and this is whether you’re a founder or not, any ed, understanding that the work and the mission. I’m going to the organization are not, were not me. I was building an institution.
I was building an organism that was wholly separate from me as a person and my worth and my vision and my value. And that sounds woo and deep, but it’s real. And the second thing I had to do was realize that this institution that I was building, this vision for change and impact in the world that I felt very strongly about just wasn’t going to resonate with everybody.
And that’s normal. And that’s fine. And that my job, if I met somebody and said, Hey, will you join this work with me and invest? And they were like, not my thing, was to realize, Oh, it’s not about me. It’s just not their thing. They’re just not that into me, right? And to take my pretty elsewhere and to find the people who are like, you know what you’re building is beautiful.
I love what you’re building. Can I join you?
RHEA 6:51
I so often think that this wasting their pretty is based in. and this belief that I’m never going to be able to talk to somebody of capacity again, or this is the last thing. But we talked about desperation just is not cute. It’s a stinky perfume that nobody wants a part of.
Jess, how do we leverage our email list to figure out who actually wants to be in community with us? Because I feel like if we’re spending all the time like being thirsty and chasing and desperate that’s not cute.
JESS 7:23
I’ll even go beyond email because I think that as fundraisers, we need to present and give people an opportunity to raise their hand to create action.
And if you’re just, as Brooke was mentioning, fiddling around with your website or you’re, redesigning your logo for an umpteenth time, you’re not creating ways for people to show that they have a hand to raise. A couple of ways that you can do that is, I believe and I know Cindy’s a huge proponent of consistency, and that can be across a variety of channels.
So whether that’s you committing, come hell or high water, every time a gift comes in, you are going to thank your donor within 48 hours. Boom. You do it no matter what. It’s your email communication with prompts where people either have to click links that you can see on the back end, or you use text like, hit reply.
To let me know and they actually respond to your emails. Maybe you pull a list off of your C R M and you say, who are the 40 people that gave this time last year that I haven’t talked to in a while? You pick up the phone, you reach out for no reason other than to say, hey, or maybe you tell ’em
a story.
Oh my gosh. Stories never ever get old. How do
you create engagement across social media? I’m listing all these things. I’m not saying you have to do all of them. I’m giving them examples. And whatever makes sense for your organization, do that. I would say less is more and consistency is above all.
So if all you can really handle is phone calls at this moment, just do the phone calls or if all you can do is commit to bi weekly email newsletters, just do that. And then once you get that under your belt, turn up the dial a bit, turn up the dial from there as you grow in capacity. But no one is just going to find what they can’t see.
And I wish that everyone out there really remembered that. Because people are busy. You, unfortunately, are not their priority. And so you have to create moments for them and poke them on the shoulder, so to speak, so that they can, oh yeah, remember that, engage back, reply back. And to Cindy’s point, to all of our points, the people that want to be there, will be there.
Whether they are pa I don’t have a lot of capacity, whether they don’t have, a lot
to offer, they will
figure out a way to show up.
CINDY 9:56
Part of the human condition is that we don’t like to do things we’re not good at.
I watch my kids trying to learn things and they… Gravitate towards the activities that they’re already good at or naturally inclined to do. And the thing is, especially in our sector, and especially with small organizations, we forget that fundraising is a skill. It is a learned skill.
But what happens is we just expect our executive director who probably comes from a programming background to just step in and do it. The board of directors, again, who maybe are recruited to the board because they have specific skill sets and ways. to contribute. And then, oh yeah, please fundraise for us.
And even our staff, who oftentimes get promoted through the ranks of the organization, we just add to their work some of the fundraising. But we’re not going to do it if we’ve not been trained, if we’re not given the tools to actually be successful. And so what that looks like in day to day when we’re, it’s just avoidance most of the time, or focusing on the wrong things.
Like we all have stories of writing a letter to Oprah or that big gala event, like we just need a million dollar gala because these are things we see celebrated in the media and what we think of as fundraising because it’s the the like newsworthy stuff. And so most people don’t actually have a deep understanding of what day to day fundraising looks like.
And if we don’t train people on that, we get caught in this cycle of. Just getting frustrated and again feeling worse about our ability to fundraise and worse about our skills and so we stop trying more and then we just lose the opportunity.
JESS 11:43
And can we just all say something that no one really says that you learn the most from making mistakes and what do you always say Ria?
It’s all about the reps.
RHEA 11:54
You just gotta get your reps in but actually I wanted to talk to Cindy SharePoint because
a sustainable fundraising program is a slow, consistent, day after day, year after year process, relationships don’t happen in a day. Us does not build in a day. And that is the currency of what we’re offering here, right? Ultimately, it’s about money, but really it’s about your vision and your impact on the world.
And, I think when we get caught up in these, unrealistic stories, and then we beat ourselves up over it how come I’m not getting Mackenzie Scott money? It’s just a recipe for burnout. And, understand you didn’t see between the before and afterwards, all those hours in the gym and all of those meals that you were prepping and all of the desserts, you weren’t eating like it.
It’s a process.
BROOKE 12:47
I cannot tell you, 50, 75% of the organizations I’ve worked with, at some point they’ve hinted or explicitly said, how can I get McKenzie? Can we. Plan to get me McKenzie Scott money.
That’s not magic money, I know a couple organizations that have gotten it and before they got that money, they got a phone call that was like, tell me
what is your plan to absorb X amount of money, and one of my friends got that call and was like, I don’t even know what the fuck that means. And she called her board chair who’s in finance. She’s what it means is what infrastructure do you have in place? If you get this amount of money, how can you leverage it and put it to use and operationalize it?
Which says to me that the multi year multi million dollar. seemingly magic grants, they assume and are predicated on a fundraising engine. That you have the strategy and the vision and the systems and the operations and the people in place, right?
That, to Rhea’s point, you have a system and it’s boring and it’s slow and it’s not sexy and it’s not fucking fast. So when you look and you’re like, oh my god, I want McKenzie Scott money, and I’m like, okay, how many people are doing operations work? And you’re like we have an operation. and a development associate.
I’m like, then you’re not getting McKenzie Scott money. Not because what you’re doing isn’t worthy. It’s because you have to have the systems. That’s what fundraising is.
JESS 14:14
I was just gonna say, as someone that has a very friendly, close organization that just actually received one of those calls, the other thing that the leader said to me when they got a multi million dollar gift I was like, is like that also is not that much money that will not last us that long.
We cannot take our foot off the pedal. This is going to help us skyrocket forward in our capacity, but it doesn’t mean we can go on vacation.
BROOKE 14:44
My friend who the first person I knew that got it, what she said was our job now is to figure out how to leverage this.
And she’s if you think about it in individual wealth terms. You don’t take your money and just spend it all. You figure out how do I create a foundation for generational wealth. So this money we ramp up because we’re not getting it again. This money is to build a foundation to strengthen our systems to continue to bring it in.
Absolutely.
CINDY 15:12
Okay, I want to tie this back to Ria’s keynote presentation that she’s making at the end of this week as of the time of this recording because those are the organizations that also have 10x thinking. If someone wrote me a check for $7 million and I don’t know what I would do with it, you are not gonna get that $7 million.
So r tell us about 10 x. Thank you. Oh my gosh.
RHEA 15:33
Thank you Cindy. Thanks for carrying that one up. So my Canone speech is about 10 x thinking, which is allowing yourself to think in a way that is. exponential, not linear, and the key here is that you have to think about your present with the future in mind, not the past.
So when we’re in what I call 2x thinking, Dan Sullivan calls 2x thinking, we’re letting the past dictate our present, right? We’re like, Oh, we haven’t grown exponentially. We haven’t ever doubled in a year, or tripled in a year, or 10x’d in a year, right? So what makes us think that we can do it now? And so you’re thinking small based on the past.
However, the future hasn’t been written. You don’t know what’s going to happen in the future. And P. S. anybody who like five years ago was like, in my five year plan, I saw COVID coming. You’re lying. No one saw COVID coming, right? You don’t know what’s going to happen.
As a sector, we play too small, and in fact, it’s not our fault, right? It’s very much based in scarcity, it’s based in how we think about budgeting, it’s based in bless their hearts, our boards, right? It’s almost like we’ve been talking about all this week, how our emotions actually protect us.
Us from something they approach trying to protect us, but in many cases they’re actually the anchors holding us back from thinking really big thoughts. There are a couple of areas that you can really interrogate your reality around. Are you in two x thinking or are you in 10 x thinking?
JESS 17:05
I do want to ask you all, what is one thing the people listening can do to stop wasting the pretty. What’s one action they can take immediately to start 10x thinking, to start cutting the dead weight, to start maximizing their time?
BROOKE 17:26
I love that question because it ties back to something Cindy was saying about not trying to convince people ?
And I also think it ties into this Mackenzie Scott not to belabor
this, but, the organizations that have gotten Mackenzie Scott money that I know have in common is there’s a thought leadership aspect, ? They’re out in the world, beyond the operational, constraints of their organization. They’re moving the dialogue about their mission forward.
They’re getting people to engage in questions about solving the deeper problems, ? And this thought leadership I think plays a really huge role in 10x thinking. At the core of the fact Day of growth, sustainable leadership. One of the things that organizational leaders do naturally and it doesn’t work, is they tell the stories that they think are important for donors to hear.
When we publish our newsletters and we have all done it, it’s what we are excited about. We’ve hired three new people and we did these seven things. That’s our reality. That’s why we think people should care about our work. That is not an effective way to build a community of raving fans.
And one thing you can do immediately to move in the direction of 10x, to move in the direction of thought leadership, of being in front of the people who are already going to love what you do, is to get on the phone with people who have already given. And just ask them, why did you give? What is exciting to you about our work?
Here’s our strategic plan what do you think? What’s fun and amazing about our work? What kind of change in the world are you most excited about? See yourself, root yourself in their movie, and have your marketing, your newsletters, your emails, your donor campaigns, be their movie.
JESS 19:29
What would it look like if you and your organization gave yourself permission to not go find any new donors?
What if for the next 3, 4, 5 months your entire focus was retaining the donors who have already given to you? Our sector is abysmal at retention. Literally for every donor you gain, you will lose more than one. And so you will always stay on the hamster wheel because you’re not doing the work in between the gifts to keep the relationship going.
And so what would it look like? How much time would you have on your calendar? If you just cut all that new donor bullshit out and you just focus, especially as we walk into end of year giving season, who are the people that were the most generous to you over the last 12 months? What if you poured into all of them, and what would the results be?
What would your energy look like? It might be magic!
CINDY 20:32
I 100 percent agree with all of it, this is such a waste of time and energy trying to bring donors in if you don’t have the vehicles to keep them giving. But I want to tell you a story about when I used to run a major gifts program at a university, so this is a big shop but we had a major gifts portfolio.
So each major gift fundraiser, including myself who over We had a list of about 125 names of major gift prospects. Most of them were alum to the school or companies that were involved in the school’s work. And when I started and I inherited this list on paper that looked amazing, right? All these really accomplished alumni, had capacity, like all these great things.
And I had no connection to our work aside from being alum. So what I did, and this is what I want you to do to cut like part of it is cutting out the things that don’t work. So I looked at this list and I said, okay, first of all, who has given in the past and renewal, that’s a priority, but anyone who hasn’t given and is not actively involved or signaling that there’s interest, I’m going to try reach out to them eight times.
And after that, they come off my
list,
And I think the same is true of lost and past donors. Absolutely work to engage them first to the work that Brooke was talking about in terms of understanding their movie and make sure you’re communicating and asking in an effective way. But at some point, let them go spend your energy on the people who are showing up and showing that they care because they need twice as much energy, but you will get 10 times the result.
RHEA 22:14
I also think, as organizations, we don’t think enough about the value that we are delivering.
Life is about reciprocity, right? And I think we have this belief. don’t have value, but the truth is, we are the vehicles through which people make change happen. If you’re a wealthy person without a non profit partner, you most likely are personally not going to be saving the whales or cleaning the oceans or sending kids to college or whatever it is you do.
You are a necessary partner in that work, so how are you both articulating the value and demonstrating the value? Because at the end of the day, the market is good feelings. If I go to Whole Foods and I give you 20 and I get a peanut back that’s the value exchange, right? But if I give a donation, there’s a delayed gratification there, because I don’t get a peanut back, but I do get good feelings, I do get the promise of some kind of impact happening with my money and our failure to loop back and tell people what’s They did with the money is the same as like when my nieces and nephews like, don’t send thank you cards.
I’m like okay. I’m disinclined to send presents because you didn’t tell me what you did or say thank you for the money. So I think part of it too is understanding that we’re in customer service. Y’all like this is a, we need to think about a donor experience. And Cindy, I’d love for you to talk about this point too.
’cause I think that there’s something in our sector about I. I’m not going to kowtow to donors and they’re not going to tell me what to do and blah, blah, blah. And look, I think we’ve all been on the receiving end of a lot of bad fundraising gross white saviorism that’s not what I’m talking about.
What I am talking about, though, is the fact that you do have to treat your donors and show appreciation for the part that they play in the mission, because without the resources, the mission does not happen.
CINDY 24:13
Fundraising feels icky for so many people, or like we’re selling our soul because we don’t know how to fundraise well. And so we fundraise badly, which means often like engaging with people who aren’t invested in the work in a meaningful way. And so we feel like we have to tiptoe or walk on eggshells and please them and compromise our values and our mission just to keep donors giving.
But again, those are the donors that are just not that into you. Stop chasing them. Focus on the donors who are, and once you find those people, they’re not going to be the ones who run for the hill screaming when you want to talk about what’s actually important in your funding needs, which is probably overhead, or looking at increasing your core operating so that you can do big things.
So I think that honest conversations with donors. is critically important, but you can’t have those honest conversations if the wrong donors are at the table. If they’re not going to listen to you, if they think that they’re superior and talk down to you. I just had a conversation with an organization who said, the donors were like trying to show them how to do their programming differently and they had no experience.
So finding the right donors and letting go of the ones that aren’t right. It opens up this opportunity to actually have these harder or more meaningful or more transformative conversations so that you don’t have to feel like you’re compromising yourself and your values in service of the donors.
Instead, you’re sharing a position of power, right? All of it comes down to don’t just have more power and we’re giving away your power. No. If you share the power, if you’re at that table to reiterate to your point about, I’m going to be talking about what value do we bring, then we can actually be more transformative in these relationships.
BROOKE 26:14
We hear all the time that fundraising should be, and as your organization grows and your budget grows, this should become increasingly the case, relational, not transactional, and one of the questions I get a lot is, hell does it mean to be in a relationship?
So I want to tell a story about something that sort of really shifted something in my own fundraising and I use this in a lot of the coaching that I do. I went to a dinner party maybe 15 years ago, long time ago, when this book Warmth of Other Sons came out, which is just an amazing book if you have not read it, it’s absolutely incredible.
And I loved the book. It’s like a thousand pages long and I took three days off work to sit in a coffee shop and read it because I loved it. Okay, that’s not the point, I’m sorry. A couple weeks later, I go to this dinner party, and I happen to mention this book to this woman that I did not know, and she’s oh, I thought I just read War and the Brothers Sons 2, so we spend the whole dinner party, we’ll call her Anne and I sitting in a corner, just talking about this book.
Okay, so fast forward a week, and I get an email from Anne. And Anne’s The author of Other Sons is going to be at a Barnes Noble in Union Square, which is in New York where we live. And I’m gonna go to the book signing, I’m gonna get tickets, would you like me to get you a ticket and we can go together.
And I loved that email. I had just met Anne, but we had this thing that we were both passionate about, and she was inviting me into deeper relationship with her around this thing that we both cared about. I felt so seen. I was like, that’s amazing. As an adult, you don’t have to make new friends.
I was like, yes, I would love to go with you. And we talked about the book. Okay. The reason that I shared that story is that had nothing to do with fundraising, but that is what good fundraising feels like to your donors. A lot of the organizations that I work with, particularly small and growing ones, think of fundraising like a billboard.
If I have the right words and enough people see it, they will send people don’t pay attention to billboards. That doesn’t make them feel special. It doesn’t make them feel in relationship to you, because that’s for everybody. What feels personal and intimate is that email saying, Hey, I know we have this passion in common.
Let’s do this thing together. And if you’re an organization, maybe that thing is a cultivation event. Maybe that thing is something where you’re like, let’s be in community together about this thing we both love. If you can get your donors to feel that way about it. It’s a book about your That’s what it means to be in relationship with your donor. That feels good to them. And then they want to come to your cultivation events. They want to come to your site visits or whatever the thing is. Not because you’ve convinced them, Oh my God, we’re doing this and we hired five people, come meet them.
But because you’re like, Hey, remember this thing we both love this vision for the world, this impact. Let’s do this together.
RHEA 29:10
Last question for you, what is one myth or misconception about fundraising that you just need to die right now, just die a painful death and never come back?
JESS 29:26
My first one is, has to do with email, because I love me some email, and the fear or the myth that if you email
too much, people will hate
you, when Truth is that email is one of your most profitable assets and the more emails you send, the more money you’ll raise.
BROOKE 29:46
Mine is going back to Rhea’s point about the board.
So I would love this idea of if I just get rich people on my board, they will ask their rich friends for money and we will be fine. The converse flip of that is the reason we are having a hard time raising our budget is because my board won’t ask their or because we don’t have the right rich people on the board.
I hate that with a hot passion. It is so bad as a way to approach fundraising and more importantly as an orientation to your board and your donors. It doesn’t work.
RHEA 30:24
Mine is similar, which is rich people are different. They’re like different than me, they’re different than you.
Number one, how are we even defining rich? Because really, by virtue of living in North America, we’re already richer than like 99. 9 percent of the whole world. Okay, so let’s start there. Secondly, money doesn’t make you a different person. Money simply amplifies what is already there.
If you were a shitty poor person, you’re gonna be even shittier as a rich person. And if You are a generous, lovely, poor person. You’re gonna be even better as a rich person. Now, the third thing that I want to talk about is the fact that all of this baggage that we bring into relationships with quote unquote rich people is just our own baggage.
It’s all the stuff and the stories and the trauma that we bring to the table and it gets in the way of human connection. They’re just people. They just happen to have more money than you. And frankly… Most of the wealthiest people I know are self made. They’re not generationally wealthy, right? They made their money.
They’re just normal, everyday people who want to do good things in the world. So why are you , projecting all this stuff on them? To use a dating analogy, don’t waste the pretty. It’s having been in bad relationships and going into the new relationship, being like, I know you’re going to cheat on me because my last boyfriend did.
You’re like, okay, that’s not a great way to start a new relationship. Okay. We’re gonna round the corner with Cindy.
CINDY 31:49
My myth pet peeve is this idea that we just need the right idea to unlock our fundraising opportunities. The reality is that the best fundraising for organizations is simple but it’s done consistently over time and it does not have to be groundbreaking.
It does not have to be stand out beautiful. It does not have to have a Cool branding campaign or anything like that. You just need to do the work consistently. Emails, meeting donors, asking on a regular basis. It’s not rocket science and the secret sauce is not in the creativity. It’s in the doing.
BROOKE 32:32
I know we have to wrap up. I just have one more. I’m so this is like a really big one for me. We’ve been talking a lot about major donors and wealthy people. I would like some myths that only wealthy people give. Because, as all of us have said, if people care about your mission, they will invest.
Whether they give 5 or 10 or 100, 000, those gifts matter. And I think when we only focus on quote unquote people we, like wealthy people or people we think are rich, we’re not just leaving money on the table, we’re not understanding where philanthropy comes from. It comes from connection. And actually, if you need facts, which sometimes I do, I’m a Virgo, I’m a Virgo.
People in the bottom quintile in the United States are the most generous in our country. Give in terms of percentage of their giving. So I think we have to understand if you tap into passion it doesn’t matter how rich somebody is, they can be an investor in your vision.
RHEA 33:24
This has been so fun.
I’m going to make sure that all of the info is in the show notes so that you can get in touch with these specialists, because we want them on our team. I am so grateful that they are my
besties. Say goodbye .
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