We all know storytelling is a powerful way to move people and effect change on the important issues of today. But in the fundraising world, storytelling has gotten a bad rap. Poverty porn, sensationalism, and negative storytelling practices have left a bad taste in our mouths and, at times, exposed the very people we want to help.
So how can we use the powerful language of storytelling to unify and empower communities rather than divide and conquer?
Join me today as I talk to Tara Dorabji, Vice President and Chief Strategy Officer for The Center for Cultural Power!
We talk about the need for value-aligned storytelling that is rooted in authenticity and how we can choose, gather, and elevate stories and storytellers to amplify and elevate diverse voices that can accelerate systemic cultural change.
We also dive into how to test and measure the impact of our influence so that our efforts don’t fall on deaf ears.
Tune in for an eye-opening discussion that just might put the joy back into your storytelling!
“It’s not just about one messenger. … [D]ifferent Messengers speak to different groups, so it’s important to have a multitude of stories and to continue to test and … learn. And as culture shifts and people shift, the storytelling will change too.” – Tara Dorabji, Vice President of The Center for Cultural Power
Important Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tara-dorabji-a364711/
The Border Report 2023: https://www.culturalpower.org/stories/the-border-report-2023/
Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nonprofitlowdown/support
Episode Transcript
RHEA 0:00
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong.
Today, my guest is Tara Dorabji. She is the vice president at the Center for Cultural Power.
And today we’re going to talk about joy in storytelling because I feel like joy is in pretty short supply. So this is going to be a fun conversation.
Tara, welcome to the show.
TARA 0:24
Thanks so much for having me, Rhea.
RHEA 0:26
I am so excited to have you. So tell us a little bit about yourself and the Center for Cultural Power.
TARA 0:30
Yeah. The Center for Cultural Power is a home for artists and activists to accelerate social change.
And right now we’re in a place where there’s so many different movements working on issue areas. And we really know that issues divide people, but values unite them. And so the Center for Cultural Powers is a values aligned organization that believes in the power of stories and artists to change the world.
RHEA 1:01
As We all know storytelling is so key in fundraising, can you give us a little sense of this report that you put out? I know it’s not new anymore, but it was published in March of this year, and I think there are lots of very interesting things about it. But tell us a little bit about this report and what prompted it.
TARA 1:18
The center for cultural power relaunched in 2020 building from the roots of culture strike. And over the last three years, we’ve been working with artists to tell powerful stories to shift worldviews and ultimately moving from systems of dominations to one of interdependence and collective care.
We’ve been working on a lot of different initiatives um, building the power of artists. To do this work and three years. And we really wanted to look at different case studies to see what’s working, how’s it working, understand the impact with audiences, and also really look at what’s the impact in folks, creating the stories and the narrative change as well.
And so we put together narratives of joy as a way to look at a few key case studies and really see what’s working, what we’re learning, and also think of it as a way to create frameworks to look at narrative change and how we might approach measuring the impact.
RHEA 2:20
On a human level, before we jump into the details of this report, can you talk about why is story the way that we inspire change to happen?
TARA 2:31
I think humans fundamentally are wired for story. It’s how we communicate, connect. It’s the moral fabric of our societies. So story is what we know. It’s like the unit that brings us together. And it’s really powerful. And we’ve seen it used against our communities. And often it’s the cultural work and preservation that happens within our communities intuitively.
And so I think that there’s a real. Opportunity to look at it as both a science and an art and understand how we can better collectively leverage it. But also it’s really important to have unique stories that are authentic to people in regions and locations.
RHEA 3:14
You said interdependence, which I think is such a key word there because I think often, whoever tells the best story wins.
And I think especially we’ve seen the political sector in the last couple of years, the stories that can move us to do things that are not in service of democracy, but we’ve also seen stories of resistance and joy. And so I’m just wondering given the world that we’ve lived in the last couple of years, why this particular study?
Why now? And what’s it going to do?
TARA 3:46
I think that given where we are it’s a moment where folks want systemic change. So I would say it’s deeply polarized. And within the polarization, you don’t, I wouldn’t say there’s a very strong base. It’s very fractured. I think that it’s a real opportunity.
Art can connect people across issues, across regions, across ways, open up ways of thinkings, inspire connect and we’re seeing that we live intersectional lives. And so that’s 1 of the things that we really saw in the report was the power of intersectional storytelling. We saw the power of artists to authentically create.
And I think that authenticity is really important. And I think that there’s a real opportunity right now. It’s not that we need a homogenous story, but we also need tools to work in alignment across various regions, disciplines, ways. And I think folks are really hungry for that right now. And they’re also.
Really interested in being able to connect across diverse communities. And what we’re seeing is that strong values alignment is something that really inspires and connects folks.
RHEA 4:54
Tell me about this report. What are the high level things that you found that are working across all of these different groups that you’re connected to?
TARA 5:03
It was really exciting to see, we were successful through our various methodologies to actually shift the mindsets of folks who are creating the narratives. So artists, community organizations, and I think this is really important because like, when we’re talking about narrative change.
It’s not just about saying, okay, here’s a narrative. Now you go and share this with all the communities, but having a way for narrative change makers to actually be part of this, like creating the story that they want to tell. And so we saw mindset shifts towards power building. So connections, feelings of belonging in the folks actually creating the narratives.
And I think that’s really important. Because if we’re going to move from the world that we’re in now into one that’s more focused on collaboration, interdependence, we all ultimately have to change and so we want to see shifts and folks creating the stories and we want to see powerful ways of understanding how we’re doing power building.
We were also able to test the content across different demographics. And we’re able to see statistically significant persuasion. So 1 campaign we worked on was for COVID vaccines in the Central Valley of California, where we saw Latin X and Latin A folks really under the state’s average for.
Using covid vaccines, and so we worked in a partnership with the California Department of Public Health and with artists and created art and took some risks. 1 piece was Lego man and really had this superhero that was a Lego, and it actually, when we tested it with audiences, we saw that folks who are unvaccinated or partially vaccinated reported a shift in intent to get vaccinated.
So being able to see that. Really powerful and and it was humorous, risk taking sort of superhero. Another way of coming at it did really well. We did have another piece of art in that campaign that focused more on the impacts of, the death and the possibility, and that did not test as well.
And that was just like one distinct demonstration of showing how stepping into a more. Fictional humorous world could convey some serious information and impact folks in a different way.
RHEA 7:32
One thing that I noticed when I was reading over the report is that there’s a real shift that I think goes against conventional knowledge about you start with the problem and you agitate the problem.
And instead, you say you start with the solution. So tell me a little bit about that and how that’s changed the arc of the narrative.
TANIA 7:51
I think it’s really important. And I would say to urgency, we see does test well. So folks want to know that it’s important. Why now? I think that’s really important.
But when we have a strong frame, a strong character and it’s in the conventional land of storytelling, the hero’s journey, when people have that person to connect to, and they can see them in their power, and then they see the problem, it’s different. But when you’re slapped at the face with the problem People tend to shut down.
There’s a way to establish a strong frame and character and someone that you want to sit with before moving into what the problem is and then coming into the solutions as well. And so by showing the strength, the solution, the possibility, and then what’s Causing the chaos. It allows people to come in and move together in a different sort of way.
And I think when we just start with the problem, a lot of times folks shut down. And that’s one of the biggest things right now is just folks feel so isolated. They feel immobilized. They feel often that it doesn’t matter and that they can’t do anything. And there’s hopelessness that can permeate.
And so how do we step into the collective hope and how do we start and see even amidst the day to day difficulties the real beacons of light and hope and inspiration that are happening as well.
RHEA 9:14
I’m trying to understand how to use this framework with respect to.
Other people moving communities, is it about inviting them to tell their story and then constructing it into the change that you’re trying to make? I think maybe a foreign example
TARA 9:30
We partnered with California Latinas and in Southern California, and the vacinas were really looking at rent control in their community.
And they were actually a reproductive justice group. they were like, okay, but in order to have reproductive justice, we also need places to live. So they were able to make that connection. And so they were working in a broad coalition around making this change in the community bell gardens, where they.
Lived and really wanted to see front control. So we partnered with them and actually worked with the in the community to tell their own stories and authentic and powerful ways. And so I think Fundamental to our pedagogy and approaches folks who are closest to the problem. No solutions and can uncover them.
But don’t always have access to the resources to amplify their stories or produce them in ways that can meet a lot of different diverse audiences. And so that’s a way that we specifically came in and supported a large coalition and movement effort. It really required directly impacted communities and organizing hub, and then the application of cultural strategy to advance those stories and, there was a success in that campaign where rent control was passed for Bell Gardens based on the coalition work. So I think it’s not necessarily so much as choosing and curating a story, but identifying where in a movement powerful stories are coming from and then bringing artists into the mix.
to marry that and amplify those and really bring those authentic stories out in powerful ways. I also think too, what’s really important is that intersectionality. And making connections across our movements and that’s what’s really going to build a base and allow for 1 win to feed another win to feed another.
Because sometimes it feels like the issue areas can actually combat against each other and a win in 1 area can be a loss in another and you can have these false dichotomies. And so I think that intersectional storytelling can be a really powerful way to broaden our base.
RHEA 11:47
It’s so funny just before we started recording, I just saw the New York Times headline that the Supreme Court has struck down affirmative action.
So I’m not in a place of joy right now but I’m curious about this values piece because I think that there is a lot there with respect to how
externally we might see differences in,
our backgrounds, our race, our beliefs, et cetera. But there is a unifying force around values. How do you help people dig down into their value set and create stories that are uniting,
not dividing?
TARA 12:21
We’ve done a lot of work on that as an organization and as a larger movement building tool with artists and organizations. And so we really start with what is the world we want to create? What does that look like? And that’s actually where you tap into your joy, right? You can feel the serotonin coming up your spine a little bit when you envision that world.
And when you can start to create and show and give it form. The underlying values that are essential to that start to show themselves. And so you see a lot of similar narratives across issue areas that are really powerful and really, can play in different ways. And so what someone might look at in terms of shifts in immigration and being able to honor all people some of those core values are also essential in sovereignty, reproductive rights as well.
And so you’re, you start to get down really to the root of it.
RHEA 13:26
When you’re working with communities and you’re gathering these stories, how are you able to discern which stories you’re going to use?
Because I’m just thinking as an executive director, listening to this yeah, Tara, I’m like, I’m so down. And yet I don’t know necessarily what makes a good story. I don’t know how to choose ones that we build a campaign around.
TARA 13:46
What we’ve learned is there’s not a one size fits all.
There’s not a magic story and relevance isn’t really important to culture building. So the moments shift. The time shifts, the content that we created that did really well for COVID vaccines, like Vaxman, those would not do well right now, because the urgency around COVID vaccination has completely shifted over the last year and a half, two years, right?
It’s a different moment. So one thing is, it’s not what is the best story? What is the story that we will keep telling? But what is the story that meets the moment? And then there is some architecture in it. So some of the narratives we found that are really powerful, for example, are just sustainable, joyful world is possible and necessary.
We get through this together, freedom to thrive. So those are some of the overarching narratives. And then how do you connect that into a specific moment and an issue? And then This may not be exactly what, folks want to hear, but I think it’s true that you just have to create, you have to test, and you have to see what works.
And it’s not just about one messenger. That’s what we’re also finding is different messengers speak to different groups. And so it’s important to have a multitude of stories and to continue to test and to continue to learn. And as culture shifts and people ship the storytelling will change too. So the stories must evolve.
And so It becomes a practice and all your work, right? It can even be and how you communicate with one another. What is the story that fits in here? Because people remember the story. And that’s the container for the information. They remember the emotion. And so in each place, asking what is the story that’s being told, who’s telling it and what are folks taking away from that?
I think those are good measures and different means and media to look at storytelling because it’s a constant practice that you can integrate into every, all sorts, like all communications.
RHEA 15:55
I think that a lot of us, especially in fundraising have been exposed to a lot of negative storytelling or poverty porn or the expectation that we’re going to have a person of color tell a really sad story to a donor that is and may experience like, harm and microaggression based on the
story. So how are we thinking about a telling stories of empowerment and be not sensationalizing, or I don’t know
Yeah, I I’m just thinking about like, how are we not exploiting people’s personal stories?
TARA 16:29
I think it’s a really critical and important question. I think authenticity always matters.
Is the story authentic to the person being told? Cause everyone feels that, and then supporting the storyteller with a series of questions. Why are they telling the story? Who do they want to move? Why and how? So that folks have autonomy over their own story. Because people in different stages and states will come to the story with different pieces, right?
And there is a part of witnessing. When people go through really difficult times, being able to share the story of what they witness is such a transformational and important step. So if someone wants to do that, what are the tools and how do you get them to do that? In the way that they want to. Part of it is about the co creation with the storyteller in terms of their goals, how it aligns with your goals, and what’s authentic to them and what’s meaningful for them.
And sometimes it’s not all storytellers match all moments or all rooms. And so I think it’s really important if there are really specific outcomes that an executive director is looking for. Making those clear before you commit. So the storyteller knows what the frameworks are and if that’s going to work for them, because I think that’s really important too.
And then I think there’s parts too is. What happens when a story catches and is very successful because then there’s more light on that story and more exposure to the storyteller and how do you think about the resources and support someone needs when their story really reaches mass audiences, which could be a form of success.
But it also opens folks up to a lot of other negative energy sometime too. So how do you equip folks as their story reaches new stages? So I think it’s important to think through those things and really come back to the core of what are the goals and how do they align and asking those questions?
So it’s less about telling someone the story that you want told and more about unearthing. What is their experience? How does it connect to the journey that you’re on together? And are there shared goals? If there’s not shared goals, then it’s not a good match. And that doesn’t mean that the story is not a great story.
And it doesn’t mean that the purpose isn’t important. It just means that’s not the right to to be brought together.
RHEA 18:54
How have you been able to, use joy and storytelling or how are you thinking about that as like a theme to help people move campaigns, move movements forward.
TARA 19:07
We’re seeing more of it and, a couple of examples, I would say there’s the life is living festival in Oakland powered by youth speaks and that really came about as how do you green?
The environmental movement and not looking so much at, okay, the chaos of climate change, but more, what are communities doing and their own practices and celebrations and focusing on the joy as a way to build community and come together. That is really powerful when folks step into the music, when they step into the art, when they step into what is it that defines their communities and powerful ways.
And when you think about moments of joy culturally, art is present. It’s so powerful. There is that question of what are we celebrating? What are we becoming? Who are we that we can put forward? And I think that can be really powerful again, in authentic ways in culturally nuanced ways and ways that resonate and are unique to each community.
But I think it’s a really powerful question. Where and how are communities connecting? What is bringing them joy? And how do they really hold and show their culture? Because when we can see that, we see what we stand for, we see who we are, and we also see what we’re standing up for and protecting and also giving and cherishing and exchanging.
So I think it’s a really important lens to think through in storytelling.
RHEA 20:43
How are we using story as a way to invite people across different communities?
’cause I do think sometimes there’s this idea of If I’m telling a community story, then only the people who are in this community are able to access it and be part of it.
TARA 20:59
I think those are really important distinctions and questions and comes back to, again, being really clear on purpose. There’s something really beautiful about creating stories within their communities for their communities.
That others can share or be a part of or not. You have to just be clear on who you’re creating for. I think that’s the fundamental question. And so generally what I ask is, What’s your broad audience that you’re creating for? Who are you trying to reach?
Being really clear on that. And then I always ask, Whose hand are you holding? Who is coming with you in this story? And if you’re not connecting with them, you have failed. And that’s part of then who you create for, and then you do it with authenticity and purpose. That clarity on who and why you’re creating is essential to the practice.
1 of the things we found that was really interesting when we tested was. Diverse characters, diverse languages diversity across stories was essential, but we didn’t see folks always responding to narrators that mirrored their own demographics.
A lot of times a community would respond really strongly to a demographic that wasn’t theirs, but there was elements that were familiar. Elements that we’re inviting. And so I think that’s really important when you think about human nature and storytelling is you want something familiar, but you want to learn so much about storytelling as transporting and learning.
I remember, in some of my fiction classes talking about what does it mean to write the other, cause there’s so much nuance in that danger and that importance, but one of the writers I heard said, I do it because I want to love them. I want to understand them.
I it’s an offering, I do think that within storytelling, there’s a huge ability to learn to open to create empathy and to really hold the dynamics that can create compassion.
RHEA 23:01
You said testing the story. You said that a couple of times.
What does that mean exactly? What are you testing and how are you testing?
TARA 23:07
How do you measure culture change? Folks know that art is powerful and how you show it’s working or not. There’s a ton of discussion about. So what we have in place, our frameworks that we look at 1, we look at the changes and the folks that are creating the stories, the narrative change agents.
And for that, we use surveys and we’re really looking at power building as an essential indicator. That’s what we’re moving towards in terms of the audience testing. We
RHEA 23:36
sorry, can we go back? How are we testing power building?
TARA 23:39
We’re looking at power building and indicators in terms of belonging understanding one’s own role in change.
So being able to really look at one’s own power in narrative change, and then also sustainability and practice. Those are some of the indicators we’re looking for in terms of mindset shifts in narrative change agents. So folks who are creating the stories and telling the stories. Because it’s really important to invest in the messengers that are creating stories actively within their community and then have a power building methodology around it.
It’s fairly new in terms of how we’re looking at it and we’re refining it and generally like right now we’re using both surveys and then also one on one conversations to really look at that movement. And then from the, go ahead.
RHEA 24:30
I was just going to say that’s. really interesting and very cool because I do feel like sometimes
we take the story, but we don’t actually check to see if the storyteller is in a good place that feels like it’s an empowering story versus a disempowering story.
And then so sometimes a lot of times we make decisions for people in either way, right? Sometimes I’ve heard people say I’m not going to ask them to tell that story because I want to protect them. You’re like is it really your decision to make about who gets to tell their story?
And it’s though, I think the intention would be good to make a decision on somebody else’s behalf without asking them feels problematic at the same time on the other end. It also feels problematic to take someone’s story without their permission or without them feeling good about it.
TARA 25:15
Exactly, and we need so many different messengers, this is a way to align and think about, okay, if storytelling is so essential to human culture, and change, and who we are, and the fabric of our society, how do we know, That we’re seeing growth in our storytellers who are then influencing so many other folks with their stories.
Storytellers are very powerful change agents. And so thinking through what the power building methodology is in that is really important. And then it’s once you have the stories. What are they doing? How are they impacting folks? The tool we’re currently using is swayable basically it’s an online tool where you have a control and a test group.
So some people see the content. Some don’t. And they both answer the same set of questions. We have some pretty general questions so that we can look at overall alignment. Is there backlash coming from the race class narrative work? And then we get very specific targeted questions around persuasion.
So It could be civic engagement persuasion. Do people feel empowered to vote after seeing the content or not? It can be COVID vaccination. It could be about rent control. Would they support it? So really being able to have both broad questions and then narrow it down to specific campaign. And it’s actually really interesting because sometimes you fall in love with a piece and you’re, you.
It’s just so powerful for you. But then when you see how different audiences react, maybe it doesn’t have the impact that you thought. Sometimes it even causes backlash. Which means folks feel the opposite way more intensely than what the artist was designing for. And sometimes backlash is really important because folks are in a specific place.
And they have to be exposed to content, which makes them uncomfortable before they can get to a place where they accept it and can move. And so there are moments for backlash. There are times to disrupt and change and then there’s other moments where you really want folks to come along on a specific action.
And so you may use different types of stories and art in order to mobilize and motivate in that moment.
RHEA 27:38
I really love that, Because I think sometimes we think of art as it’s a creation and then you put it out into the world, right? So the fact that you’re actually testing to see if it’s doing the thing that you want it to do is really powerful.
So once you’ve designed this campaign, you have the stories, you’ve tested it out on, I presume you have like test audiences that you’re showing this to, or is it more like the general audience? Who’s the, the who here
TARA 28:04
both. So we do the testing audience, which is online in general through this firm.
We work with called swayable and then we also distribute into the world. And so we do that different ways through social media. We do sometimes advise specifically in a region. We also work with influencers and specific. Markets and we find that micro influencers are actually really influential. So they are trusted messengers in community and we both work with micro influencers as disseminators of content and sometimes as creators as well.
RHEA 28:40
How do you define a micro influencer?
TARA 28:42
Micro influencers usually have around 30, 000 up to a million followers online. So it’s very much a digital online platform.
And it’s someone who has a very specific focus community. It can be regional, it can be demographic, it can be interest, but Because they’re a little smaller, they’re a little more known to their community, and they just seem to be more trusted. Having relationships with values aligned influencers has been a really important way for us to be able to distribute and reach really specific, targeted audiences.
RHEA 29:18
I have a technical question, but how do you just how do you decide which platforms and channels are going to use in order to push out a message? Because I think especially, in my line of work, it’s very overwhelming. I guess we could do like LinkedIn and Facebook and Tick Tock and traditional media by and it’s like how do I even
know?
TARA 29:36
I wish I could tell you a plus B equals C, but platforms change people’s change. So having the right content for the right platform is really important. For example, for our COVID campaign in the Central Valley, we ended up disseminating a lot on YouTube based on data from the Akis labs and Harmony’s labs that showed that a lot of Latinx folks In our age range tended to be on YouTube.
So we did paid ad placements on YouTube and we got incredible Rate of opens and return on that. So that was an excellent investment. We find also that for on Instagram Still images do much better than video still. And little things like horizontal video versus vertical makes a huge difference. So you have to shoot everything vertical if you’re on Instagram for reels, those types of things.
So small differences really matter based on platform and There’s all kinds of new and emergent technologies happening. People move. And so it’s really about knowing where your audience is, what type of content and stories and art play best on that particular format, and then creating a story in that format to reach those audiences.
The exciting thing is that there’s a lot of testing learning creativity in it. The hard thing is that once you get a methodology down, things tend to change. So it’s really important to be able to look at your metrics for engagement and understand and look at what’s working and what’s not, because generally it’s a surprise.
Sometimes your intuition is right. But sometimes the numbers tell a different story, and so it’s really important to look for those trends, understand them, and then shift and change.
RHEA 31:33
As you’re thinking about a campaign, how do you measure the success? I think if it’s a binary, like a campaign that, it seeks to change a law, it’s okay, did it happen?
Yes or no, but how do you measure it when it’s more cultural change or, like, movement change or systems change?
TARA 31:49
I think that it’s sort of a both and. For example, we’re also working in the border region between the US and Mexico. In there, we’ve been working with a diverse group of artists, journalists, organizations working at the border to really And Share narratives in their own voice about the border region.
What is the border? What do they envision? What changes need to happen? For something like that, we’re really looking at how does the support that we’re giving to the organizations and the trainings build collaboration. What are the benefits that communities see from the work that’s being done?
And then how is the work inspiring and shifting? What new skills? So I think that again, then we go back to the power building metrics, looking at collaboration. Inspiration and also, I think resources moved matter as well as a field where there’s been so much disinvestment in communities that are really bearing the brunt of the issues and the problems.
We have to look at the inequity, and I think that it is important to look at what type of resourcing is moving to communities, how when we’re doing these campaigns are directly impacted folks being resourced, gaining skills, advocating for their own communities and defining solutions.
RHEA 33:18
As you say that I actually am thinking about the human impulse, maybe it’s just my impulse to catastrophize.
You’re like, it’s all bad. Everything is bad. Everything is falling. Like the world is terrible, right? And so forcing your mind to actually focus on the things that are working, I think is a really powerful thing. And for someone such as myself a little bit difficult. I think it’s certainly a little bit of a challenge.
TARA 33:42
I think it’s a daily practice, right? What are the moments that we can have good structures and where can we replenish? How do we replenish? How do we connect? Because there is real urgency in our communities. And for some folks, it’s not, when you are housing unstable, when you’re in a medical catastrophe, when you’re in a military zone, Those are real difficult moments, and sometimes there’s no sort of, you can’t see the light of when it’s going to shift or how, so I do think that there is real urgency for our communities and to your point, catastrophizing and being in the fight or flight mode isn’t going to support the long term change, so I think too, part of it is understanding that yes this is a long shift, That we’re contributing to it’s a long game.
There’s moments of urgency where. All hands need to be on deck, and we have to work together and really powerful ways. And each of us has something to contribute. And how do we do it in ways where we’re not just increasing the chaos and the conflicts and the difficulties within communities.
RHEA 34:54
is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you think is important? And I’ll make sure to put a link to this very excellent report in the show notes.
TARA 35:03
When we’re thinking about storytelling and narrative change, who tells the story how they’re telling it and the support and the investment.
And the storyteller is essential, so I think that’s just something that we’ve. Overlooked a lot as a movement, and the more that we can center on that, the stronger we become. And I do think that again, how we connect across issue areas, how we connect across movements. And how we really work from the roots up supporting directly impacted communities and storytellers is going to be the essential for that long term shift that we’re all working towards.
RHEA 35:45
Thank you so much for this has been really interesting and I’m going to make sure to link the information in the show notes. Folks are definitely get in touch with you, especially as I think about movement building and shifting hearts and minds. So thanks so much for all
the work that you’re doing.
TARA 35:59
Thank you so much for having me.
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