When I was an ED, leading my team sometimes felt like fumbling around in the dark looking for the path forward.
Enter my friend Dr. Patton McDowell. Patton provides a roadmap and framework for nonprofit leaders. Whether you’re a new leader, a leader looking to grow or an experienced leader ready for the next step, this interview will provide insights about the next step. Isn’t clarity what we all want?
Links below to connect with Patton and to buy his book.
Connect with Dr. Patton
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pattonmcdowell/
Website: https://www.pattonmcdowell.com/
Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership Book: https://www.amazon.com/Patton-McDowell/e/B09L5JJXS3%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
Quote from Dr. Patton McDowell:
“My definition of leadership is what I’ve kind of come to at this point, which is the ability to retain, attract, and retain talented people. You need followers to define your leadership
Episode Transcript
Rhea Wong 0:07
Welcome to nonprofit lowdown. I’m your host Rhea Wong.
Rhea Wong 0:10
Hey, Podcast listeners! it’s Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit lowdown.
Rhea Wong 0:15
Today, my guest is Dr. Patton McDowell and we are going to talk about The Seven Steps to Nonprofit Leadership. Patton is a founder of PMA Nonprofit Leadership and like me, is a podcaster and an author. His book and podcast are both called “Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership.” So he’s kind of the expert on the Paths of Nonprofit Leadership, Patton?
Dr. Patton McDowell 0:38
Rhea, I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.
Rhea Wong 0:40
I am delighted to have you as well, and actually what’s really fun is we’re starting to expand. We used to be very heavily New York-based guest list and you are in beautiful North Carolina.
Dr. Patton McDowell 0:51
Indeed, Charlotte to be exact. So delilghted to represent the Southeast for this conversation.
Rhea Wong 0:57
Excellent. And for the basketball fans out there, Patton actually went to UNC, so we had a little Michael Jordan moment. Another, I think that’s a different podcast. It’s like the Reno podcast.
Dr. Patton McDowell 1:09
We can always add that to the list if we need to, but yes, it was fun to be there close to when he was in fact on campus.
Rhea Wong 1:16
So exciting. Okay, before we jump into the details of what we’re going to talk about, can you walk us through a little bit about your path in the nonprofit world?
Dr. Patton McDowell 1:25
Yeah, happy to and Rhea thanks again for the opportunity. I was by chance, offered an internship while at UNC Chapel Hill with Special Olympics International. And so what I thought might be a fun summer in Washington DC, became a career defining opportunity.
Dr. Patton McDowell 1:44
And so I was there when Eunice Kennedy Shriver, the founder of that global movement, was still actively managing and leading SOI as we called it. And it just opened my eyes to opportunities of nonprofit leadership, and frankly, the complexity and depth of nonprofit organizations.
Dr. Patton McDowell 2:03
And so from there, I ended up working there and at the North Carolina office for about eight years, I wanted to continue to sharpen my fundraising skills, and so got into higher education. I was the Vice Chancellor down at UNC Wilmington, another UNC institution. So had a fantastic experience leading fundraising, alumni relations, all of what is called University Advancement, for my higher ed FIT Friends in the room and listening.
Dr. Patton McDowell 2:29
And then went to Queen’s University here in Charlotte, also had an opportunity to lead a development or fundraising team. So 10 years in higher ed then led to what I do now, about 15 years ago, I decided I felt like I had experience that could benefit others. And it learned so much from leaders like Mrs. Shriver, so I started PMA nonprofit leadership. And that is the consulting practice I have now, I’ve got some wonderful colleagues that work with me. And we’ve been able to work with almost 250 organizations.
Dr. Patton McDowell 3:00
Now, strategic planning, fundraising, and you won’t be surprised to hear nonprofit leadership, of course, is my favorite. And so that’s what we do.
Rhea Wong 3:10
So Patton, thank you for that. When you and I talked when I was on your podcast, you just spoke a little bit about I think you had a mastermind that you were running with nonprofit leaders. And why don’t just delve into definitions a little bit, because I think leadership is a word that’s thrown around a lot means different things to different people has become very sort of buzzy to say, but I don’t know that we have a precise definition. So how would you define leadership?
Dr. Patton McDowell 3:38
Love that question, Rhea. And you’re right. I think a lot of people use leadership and management interchangeably. And in fact, as a nonprofit leader, you certainly have to have management skills. And in fact, in the book I talk about, there are, in my opinion, 10 essential skills and experiences you need, many of which are management oriented.
Dr. Patton McDowell 4:01
But my definition of leadership is what I’ve kind of come to at this point, is the ability to retain tool, first of all, to attract and retain talented people. You need followers, to define your leadership, you have to have folks following and in fact, I think there are five distinct areas that represent the best leaders, they can attract and retain talented staff. They can attract and retain board members. They can attract and retain community partners. And they can also, of course, attract and retain funders.
Dr. Patton McDowell 4:38
And so much of the relationship building that I think is essential to leadership is how I’ve come to define it. And again, not to dismiss all of those management elements, but can you attract and retain I think I left out one of the five volunteers. But as I think about the best nonprofit leaders I’ve worked with, they’re good at all five and that, Rhea, to me defines what are really good leaders.
Rhea Wong 5:04
Yeah, I’m really glad that you put it in that context. I’ve not thought of it that way, but that’s exactly right. As a leader of a nonprofit, you’re constantly interfacing with different constituents. And your job is to really attract, retain, and I would say, grow and deepen the relationship, folks. So, alright, let’s just jump right into it, because that is the name of the webinar, people want to know, what are the seven steps to nonprofit leadership, Patton?
Dr. Patton McDowell 5:29
Hoping you would ask that. And in fact, the book is an opportunity for me to unpack these seven concepts. The kind of analogy we’re using here is a path. But it really should be better defined as a circular path. These are seven concepts, I believe, nonprofit leaders and aspiring leaders need to constantly focus. So it’s not like you kind of make a stop and you check it off your list.
Rhea Wong 5:54
Why don’t you give us a big overview, and then we’ll- we can deep dive on each one, if that’s okay?
Dr. Patton McDowell 5:59
Happy to. Number one, sharpen your vision. I devote a whole chapter to this the best nonprofit leaders have clarity about their long term vision. And I use an exercise called a vision framework, which again, helps you define not just you want to be an executive director, let’s say but in what sector, in what geography, what size and scope do you want to work with. So that’s number one, sharpen your vision.
Dr. Patton McDowell 6:23
Number two, I call map your course. And that’s both a self-assessment process, as well as putting some clarity and kind of time horizons on your plan, one, three, even 10 years.
Dr. Patton McDowell 6:37
Number three, I call get in shape. And while we all need to think about the literal interpretation of fitness, sleeping, eating, exercising, but I’m using this term also to include getting in shape to be a leader, because I’m convinced the volume can- will come at you fast and hard. And so you need to be ready, including those rituals and routines that help you manage the volume and the many aspects of being a leader.
Dr. Patton McDowell 7:04
Number four, I call curate knowledge, meaning the data coming at us is just literally overwhelming. And the best leaders I believe, have a clearly thought out plan to what information do they need? How do they organize it? And and how do they build in systems to learn it? It’s one thing to have all this stuff in our inbox, right? Or the pile on our desk. But how do we curate it and determine what is essential for us to learn to be more successful. So that’s the whole concept there.
Dr. Patton McDowell 7:37
Number five, I call express yourself. The best leaders, I think all of you would agree often are skilled communicators. And it doesn’t mean they all have to be on stage. But I do think there are essential communication skills and tools you have to employ written, speaking, presentation, and just interpersonal. You are going to be in all of these settings as a nonprofit leader. And fortunately, all of these things can be developed and improved. And so that’s what this kind of express yourself concept is focused on.
Dr. Patton McDowell 8:13
Number six, build community. And all of you, you wouldn’t be here if you weren’t interested in strategic networking. So I get into that a lot. I’ve been fortunate, frankly, at every step of my career journey, because of networking contacts, that opened my eyes or opportunities. And so I get into the book about having strategic interviews, in other words, tactical activities that you can expand your network and perhaps create a mutually beneficial bond. And, I’m suggesting we all should have a personal board of directors, and I expand on that in the book as well.
Dr. Patton McDowell 8:48
And last but not least, via the I just call practice leadership. The best leaders I’ve found in our Mastermind program in particular uses this mantra of you need to coach and be coached. And I think that’s a lifetime commitment. There’s always someone behind you on the path that you can help, and frankly, teaching is a wonderful way to sharpen your skills, and there are people ahead of you on the path. And you had need to be willing and self-aware to take feedback and be willing to get better. So I hope that makes sense, Rhea that’s a rapid fire all seven
Rhea Wong 9:22
Yeah. So let me just reiterate all seven for folks and then I want to do a bit of a deep dive. So first is sharpen your vision. The second is your map your course. The third is get in shape, I love that. Fourth, curate knowledge. Fifth, express yourself, six, build community and seven practice leadership coach and be coached is that right?
Dr. Patton McDowell 9:45
Absolutely. Right, correct.
Rhea Wong 9:46
Okay, so let’s do a deep dive here, Patton. Of all of the the seven, which is your personal favorite?
Dr. Patton McDowell 9:53
The first one, sharpen your vision. But what I find many nonprofit leaders, talented aspiring leaders have a general sense of where they want to go. Usually, it’s a senior leadership position, but they just have a hard time breaking it down into action steps. And so I have found the vision framework that I mentioned, has been as valuable as anything that I did. And again, I’ve applied all of these personally, and now try to utilize them in my coaching and mastermind programs, because I think it allows folks to create a path literally going forward.
Dr. Patton McDowell 10:30
And I mentioned kind of, once we know if you are willing to move into a different sector? Or do you want to stay in education? Is it healthcare? is it arts and culture? There’s no wrong answer, but by thinking intentionally about what I am willing to do, and might be effective, often it’s not the sector they’re in now, they would entertain something else. Same with geography.
Dr. Patton McDowell 10:52
Now, maybe you are tied to your community, and that’s fine, but would you move for the right opportunity? These are the kind of questions that I think lead to powerful introspection, and that’s why I guess Rhea, I really liked that first step, because everything that follows can be defined more clearly, when you have that clarity upfront.
Rhea Wong 11:12
Yeah, it reminds me of Patrick Lencioni, and how he talks about the job of a leader is to provide clarity to create clarity, clarity up and down, even if people don’t like it, at least you’re clear about what’s happening.
Dr. Patton McDowell 11:26
Absolutely true.
Rhea Wong 11:28
So as we think about this, I want to talk about get in shape, because I think that is an area where a lot of leaders might be lacking. So whether that means self-care, right? Because I know, a high burnout rate in the sector. I mean, I think there’s a real sort of ethos in our sector. I hope it’s changing, but it’s almost like a burden. Like if I can sacrifice myself, if I’m working 90 hours a week, and I don’t sleep and I don’t eat and I don’t see my kids, and then I’m somehow, I call it ED-ing harder, like I am-
Dr. Patton McDowell 12:01
exactly right.
Rhea Wong 12:03
Like I’m the best, because look at what I’m sacrificing. So talk a little bit about get in shape. Is that physical or metaphorical? Or emotionally? What does that mean?
Dr. Patton McDowell 12:11
Both and all. And I’m glad you raised that, because you’re right, I do think martyrdom is an issue in our sector. And I admire and applaud the intensity that many of our nonprofit colleagues bring. But if you’re emailing me three in the morning, I worry that you’re burning the candle at every end, and it’s not going to sustain. And it’s something you and I’ve talked about before we worry about the sector, and turnover and all that.
Dr. Patton McDowell 12:36
And so if we’re not taking care of ourselves, we’re certainly not going to sustain an organization, but in literal terms, I talked about, yeah, you need to I’m not in a position to give you advice on diet, sleep or exercise but I know you need to be thinking about it. And I encourage all the folks I’m coaching is we call it the big three, what can you do in one of those three, maybe it’s changed your sleep routine, get more sleep, maybe it is eat better, maybe it is exercise, maybe it is practice, meditation, something to take care of yourself, but I’m hoping simply to get them talking about it, thinking about it so that perhaps they will be thoughtful.
Dr. Patton McDowell 13:14
But something else we do Rhea in the mastermind, is I find that clutter consumes many of our lives in ways that reduces our efficiency. So we have an exercise where we’re like declutter something, you got too many emails in your inbox, you have too many apps on your phone, you got too much in the pile behind you. Look, I’m literally an example, too much stuff on your desk. As a leader, you’re going to have to declutter, I think to be effective. So that’s another example, where we talk about getting in shape might mean changing your routines and rituals, so that you can handle the volume even better.
Rhea Wong 13:54
I love that because it really reminds me of James’ clear to atomic habits, like you the habits lead to the outcomes, right? Because I talked about this a lot with organizational culture change, right? How many times have I decided like, “Okay, we’re gonna change the culture, guys!” It just like goes to the mean, because it’s all of the habits and processes underneath that support the culture.
Dr. Patton McDowell 14:18
Exactly. Right.
Rhea Wong 14:20
And the other thing that strikes me too, is like, I’m reflecting on my own nonprofit leadership. And I think, for me, the biggest shift was really just maturity. I mean, I was a 26-year old ED and I think I was very insecure, but I- because I was insecure, I sort of like outwardly presented being suit like very confident as a way to cover up but it wasn’t really until I became more mature, more secure in myself that I was able to open myself up to learning opportunities to coach and be coached, right, because I didn’t understand that actually. The unwillingness to be coached to seem vulnerable was actually a weakness and it was actually tied to my own insecurity.
Dr. Patton McDowell 15:05
That’s nice of you to reveal. And I think we’ve all had some of that there’s a bit of early stage leaders, the imposter syndrome that we sometimes feel, I certainly did as a young vice chancellor at a university, but it’s something we can work on, and I think create a community and that’s, again, what I love what you’re doing. Bringing communities like this together is where I think a lot of support can come in something else Rhea that motivated me on the book was there were three distinct audiences. And one of them that I described as emerging leaders.
Dr. Patton McDowell 15:38
I learned from when I started as a consultant, there were a fair number of university programs, both undergraduate and graduate focused on nonprofit management leadership, philanthropic studies, or something like that. There are over 300 now. So over 300, in the United States, more and more young, talented professionals are going into our sector, and how do we help them? How do we help the next young, talented Wong, who wants to get into nonprofit leadership, wants to be good at it? And that, to me, is a constant motivation. And I love working with that kind of sector, if you will.
Dr. Patton McDowell 16:17
But there’s another one too, we all have seen this, our colleagues in the for-profit sector, I call the lateral entry, kind of group or cohort. I’m tired of my work in the for-profit sector here in Charlotte, there’s kind of a banking financial services hub. And I have coffee, I bet weekly with someone saying but I’m tired of it, but just doesn’t fulfill me. I think my skills are transferable. So Patton, what do you think? And so that leads to a conversation about “Alright, let’s talk about what is transferable?” What do you need to work in the third, that gets to put all three of these on the table real quick, is what I call career plateaus. And I bet you’ve had, Rhea a lot of these conversations too, again, that comes in three categories. I knew, I loved it, but I don’t know where to go from here, I’m kind of an entry level position, help me define a path.
Dr. Patton McDowell 17:05
The second area is mid career, I’ve hit a ceiling. I’m a director level, I want to be Executive Director, not sure how to break through that ceiling. And then third is the Senior Executive Director, now what? I have that conversations, “Patton, do I move to a bigger nonprofit? And try to expand my leadership?” or “do I need to think about an exit strategy? And maybe do consulting or something else?” So I wonder, Rhea, are you running into those but for me, those three audiences were exactly who I was trying to target with the book.
Rhea Wong 17:40
Yeah, that’s all stood, so generally, the folks I talk to tend to be in the last category of executive directors. So wonder, like, where do I go from here? And frankly, I mean, let’s just be very frank, and candid. A lot of executive directors I know are not looking to be an ED again, because I think the job is so hard. It demands so much of you. And so often they feel burned out, they feel like they don’t have another, another go in them, at least not right away. So I’m just wondering, too, how do you think about the burnout factor, because I think, especially post pandemic, I’m just seeing all these ED’s leaving the field?
Dr. Patton McDowell 18:19
I couldn’t agree more. And it well, it gets back to that get in shape, where as much as I admire your dedication to your nonprofit, if I don’t sense you have a healthy balance, and I’m concerned and you’re going to leave or they’re going to push you out because you’re not being effective. And so I’m encouraged by what may be a silver lining of the pandemic is a more flexible work schedule. And it has to be modeled from the top right? If our leaders don’t model this, if they don’t take time off, if they don’t entertain even a sabbatical, it leads to something, Rhea, you and I’ve talked about “why the turnover, why the attrition?” but I’m convinced my most nonprofits aren’t sensitive enough to that kind of professional development, which leads to personal development. And that’s why we run into some of the problems we have now.
Rhea Wong 19:08
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s such an astute observation, because I remember, I distinctly remember this, which is, I would say the thing, but I would not model the thing. So I was like, “no, no, no! you all should definitely take your vacation, and definitely do not send emails at 11 o’clock at night.” I will. But don’t, I don’t expect you to do that. And I remember this one time I was sitting, I was out on a Friday night, and it was like two o’clock in the morning and I was sending work emails, like “what am I doing right now?”
Dr. Patton McDowell 19:42
You caught yourself right almost.
Rhea Wong 19:44
Well, I sent a couple emails and I was like, “This is crazy! I need to stop doing this,” right? but I think part of effective leadership is self-awareness and realizing that what you do is often interpreted more than what you say. Right?
Dr. Patton McDowell 19:59
Great point.
Rhea Wong 20:00
People are looking at what you do. Okay, I got some questions coming in fast and furious. So, let me ask one more question, and then we’ll get to some q&a. But we talked about attrition, right? So I think the great resignation is real, it’s certainly hit a lot of different sectors, including ours. I’m part of a network of executive directors. And every week, I literally see job descriptions and this person left and we need to fill this position. So, I mean, I don’t know what the question is here other than like, what do we do about this? I mean why, but also, what do we do?
Dr. Patton McDowell 20:35
I’m glad you gave me a head start on this one, because I’m, I was excited to talk about it. And I’d be curious about our friends here in the Zoom Room, what they think, I think they’re four issues. So I broke it down into four issues. And we’ll be curious, Rhea, your reaction but in terms of turnover and attrition, I think there are four things.
Dr. Patton McDowell 20:51
Number one, the kind of expected HR issues, lack of adequate compensation benefit, lack of flexible work environment, I think more and more, the talented candidates in our sector are going to expect greater flexibility, they’ve gotten used to it to some extent, so organizations that can’t provide reasonable HR benefits are going to create departures.
Dr. Patton McDowell 21:14
Number two is unrealistic and overwhelming job descriptions. And I often say this, that the passion for the mission may carry you for a year, year and a half, you know, which I guess is the standard turnover for fundraisers still, what is it 16 months or something like that, but passion will carry you. But eventually, if you’re asked to do too much, it is unsustainable. And we all everybody in this room knows it, but they hire you as a development director. But then they want you to manage the events and the website, and the database and nine other things, not going to work.
Dr. Patton McDowell 21:47
Number three, the growth of the sector new opportunities, there will be greener pastures all around you. And so again, this is a kind of note to leaders in the room, what are you doing to retain your talent, because they are surely going to see opportunities to jump. And sadly, many of them do, whether it’s premature, maybe doesn’t matter if they decide they’re going.
Dr. Patton McDowell 22:09
And then fourth, and this is, of course, what we’re talking about Rhea I know you’re so committed to with the work you do, but lack of professional development because I think many of the conversations I have, they didn’t leave because of an HR issue, specifically, but the organization just didn’t seem to take any interest in my professional development. And a counter to that is those organizations that retain talent, I’m convinced have a commitment to professional and career development, and it pays off.
Rhea Wong 22:39
There’s so much there but I agree with you 100%, Patton which is I talk for my program, I talk to a lot of folks about joining and increasing their fundraising skills. And oftentimes the answer I get, I only have $1,000 for professional development, as if like, this is just a nice thing that my organization is going to do, as opposed to investing in your assets, your human assets, to build the capacity of the organization.
Rhea Wong 23:09
And I think to the thing that drives me nuts, I’m just going to put it all out there is I think as a sector, we have a really short term view of the world. Like we don’t see that actually, by investing in retaining our talent, it’s actually saving us money in the long run, because we don’t calculate the cost of having to replace somebody, it’s usually that person’s salary plus, right?
Rhea Wong 23:31
So it’s like, well, if you had just actually invested $10,000 in that person’s growth and kept them in the organization for X number more years, like that actually ends up being a savings of Y number of dollars, but like we don’t have multiple, right?
Rhea Wong 23:46
Yeah, for sure. I don’t know, I guess it’s because of like the the urgency and scarcity in which we work. I feel like we’re always just, we’re in like survival mode. And so we’re not able to think longer term about investment in investing in talent, investing in resources, investing in infrastructure.
Dr. Patton McDowell 24:06
I think the opening, Rhea is possible, because many of our board members certainly invest in the talent in there for-profit settings. And so if we can, again, better translate to them, Look, you invest in your folks, you have training programs, you have professional development, and you see the literal benefit, the multiple benefit of the relationship management, frankly, that goes on in their business. And you just said it perfectly, think about the relationship loss of that turnover your fundraiser every 16 months.
Dr. Patton McDowell 24:36
So it’s not just the actual transactions during that year and a half, but it’s the relationships that are lost that could have yielded 10s or hundreds of 1000s of dollars, had we been more forward thinking.
Rhea Wong 24:49
But, Patton I mean, I think to the did, partially due to the way that we’re funded, right, so how many times have we had to submit grants or talk to donors about overhead or like this is our administrative cost and war had government grants and only pay 3% of staff, as if like programs happened without staff members. So that’s a mystery.
Rhea Wong 25:13
So I guess I’m just wondering how do we solve it? Because I 100% agree with you, which is we have to really invest in the sector in a talent in HR in our people but when we’re sort of hamstrung by the funding mechanisms, how do we do it?
Dr. Patton McDowell 25:29
Well, I mean, obviously, what you do so well, we need to call it out. So there’s the kind of shaming of some of these funders who are creating an unrealistic environment for success. I’d like to think the logic of investing for the long term and using sustainability kind of arguments would help them understand, yeah we can’t sustain this if we can’t staff it, if we can’t provide adequate personnel.
Dr. Patton McDowell 25:54
Also, what I’m trying to do and you do this well, on the podcast is lift up those funders who do seem to become more aware of this issue that are funding with funding operations are funding multi year grants. And if we lift up their successes, I’m hoping Rhea that maybe some of the other funders will say, “Yeah, you know what? that does make sense.” And I don’t have to create such an impossible kind of cycle for those that I’m trying to grant because I think ultimately, funders do want you to succeed, but we’ve got to get that kind of scarcity mindset out of their kind of boardrooms as well.
Rhea Wong 26:28
What I say my three favorite words in the English language, it’s not I love you, it’s multi year unrestricted funding.
Dr. Patton McDowell 26:35
That is at the very top of your favorite statement, isn’t it yeah?
Rhea Wong 26:38
That’s right, just put that on my gravestone, that’s all I need. multi year unrestricted funding. Okay. Yeah, we’ve got some good questions coming in. So Renee, do you want to meet yourself? Why don’t we start with your first question?
Renee 26:49
All right, great. Hi. Good to see you guys.
Dr. Patton McDowell 26:52
Hey, Renee
Renee 26:53
Hello. So my question was this idea of vision I’ve been in the past, at different times, people have asked me, “what’s your vision for your next 10 years or 20 years?” And I, that has not been the way that I have operated, It’s been much more emergent. And even I actually am, I’m teaching a class now on nonprofit consulting. And I’m telling my students to think about small experiments that you can do. So I wonder how you find this balance? Of course, when you’re a leader, you are you do you need to tell people where you’re going. But on the other hand, I think, especially with so much uncertainty that we’re experiencing, how do you find that balance? Because if you’re gonna go too far, it’s really not even- everybody had to kind of drop their visions anyway, in a lot of ways in March 2020. So I’m just curious. Yeah, what you what you’re thinking about this?
Dr. Patton McDowell 27:59
Let’s just, let’s tackle the things you are comfortable asking. In other words, do you want to stay in healthcare? Do you want to stay in education? What are the sector questions? What about the type of environment you’d like to work? Whether it’s short term or long term? because I find that gets people’s wheels turning like, “Yeah, well, I’d like to be in a large organization and have the variety of that professional experience.” Others will say “You know what, I like a small organization. I like wearing more than one hat.”
Dr. Patton McDowell 27:45
That’s such a good question, Renee and you’re right. I love it as a starting point. You’re right. I think we put pressure on ourselves sometimes to and even the term vision. Yeah. Has that long term expectation? And like, yeah, I don’t know. I can’t imagine the next six months, much less six years. The vision frame framework concept that I’ve kind of experimented with, Renee has been alright, let’s take the things that you do know. In other words, let’s not put pressure on the long term question. Maybe you have a general sense of leadership, which is mostly what I run into. But that’s where breaking it down into the kind of sub sector questions.
Dr. Patton McDowell 28:44
So I don’t know if, Renee that helps, but I find it when I’m coaching. Yeah, I kind of let’s leave the longterm question for later. Let’s start with some of those immediate kind of questions. And then they begin to build a framework that may lead ultimately what, and we do something to I call job mapping, which allows folks to kind of experiment by researching jobs that might be of interest someday, and allows them to again, get their wheels turning, without the pressure of note, I’m not saying you should apply for the job, but begin to experience what other opportunities might look like. And we’ve had over a four month mastermind, people literally will change this vision framework over four months. And so again, Renee, great point that I think sometimes we put pressure on the long term answer that maybe we don’t need to push right away.
Rhea Wong 29:37
Well, let me ask a follow up question here Patton because I’m gonna name check Simon Sinek. Everyone’s very much about find your why find your why, right? But I feel like there’s so much pressure there and it can be really hard to find your why. So what what’s your response to that?
Dr. Patton McDowell 29:52
Yeah, I mean, I, I will take someone as far as they’re willing to go. Again, most of the folks I’m working with have a general sense. Yes. I would like to assume leadership in the sector, even if I’m not sure exactly what that means. Now it doesn’t have to- one, it may not be in many leadership in the job you’re in now. So I’m quick to point out, you don’t have to go quit your job. Just because you have a dramatic vision of something, maybe you just want to be the very best at what you do and the impact you have at your organization and the communities you serve. But yeah, in terms of why and pushing that too hard, I simply don’t. I just say, “Let’s go as far as you’re willing to go, and we’ll get there.”
Rhea Wong 30:33
And I just want to call back to something that you’ve said that I think is really interesting, because I think, as a sector, as leaders in the sector, we have this narrative of like, the great resignation, and there aren’t any good people out there, and they’re all leaving, and they’re all becoming Tiktok influencers. But what I hear you saying is that they are out there, and the reason that they may not be coming to your organization, or staying in your organization is something that you should reflect on, as opposed to assuming that the problem is external.
Dr. Patton McDowell 31:01
Exactly. And I guess to reinforce that what I say to leaders, obviously, I love working with those that were aspire, or we’re talking about that aspire to leadership, but also I turn it around for the leaders in the room in any room is, what are you doing to make your organization attractive to any of those three categories? The Emerging Leader, the lateral entry, or the mid career plateau? They’re all out there. They’re all talented. Why should they come to your organization?
Dr. Patton McDowell 31:31
And what are you going to do to reinforce their genuine career ambition again, sadly, I just think a lot of times we get them here they parachute in, and we we hand them a three ring notebook and wish them well. And is it any wonder they’re leaving? But again, hopefully, Rhea, that’s something I know you’ll continue to face as well?
Rhea Wong 31:53
Well, and I think for those of you listening, you should grab Patton’s book and use it as a compass for your internal staff, right? Because if you can create a framework of this is what leadership looks like at this organization. Because I think so often, especially with younger professionals, they don’t know how exactly your first or second job out of college. But if you can create a framework around like, these are the competencies that you can develop. This is what leadership means it actually gives them a roadmap to aspire to.
Dr. Patton McDowell 32:20
Exactly right. And that’s my hope, because I need I didn’t have it, I was fortunate to have and of course that led to the section on the strategic networking. I was just very fortunate to have mentors early on. And so I’m hoping I can kind of pass it forward, if you will.
Rhea Wong 32:36
Great. Okay. Great question coming in from Terry.
Terry 32:39
Hi, guys.
Rhea Wong 32:39
Hi, how are you doing, Terry?
Terry 32:41
Good. So I am a nonprofit consultant. And in that role, I serve as a part time executive director that puts in full time hours and has other contracts. So one, I need to get your book Pat, and then I will, but these seven steps talk a little bit about how they unfold. Is it more of an organic process? Is it more “Hey, you should focus on step one before step two?” And also how do you fit this type of professional development in when you are already, like overloaded with the work you have to get done on a day to day basis? Could you address settle up? How do we weave this into our professional work?
Dr. Patton McDowell 33:29
The intent is to present these concepts in sequence, because as I mentioned earlier, I think the vision framework leads to greater clarity on steps two through seven. But I’m quick to point out there’s a parallel nature to these activities. In other words, you all know this strategic networking is something you should constantly do.
Dr. Patton McDowell 33:50
Curating knowledge, in other words, learning has to be part of your lifelong plan. And so while they’re introduced in sequence, I’m suggesting and hopefully providing tools in the book that allow you to maintain them. But Terry, you nailed the key point in every one of our mastermind groups, one of the biggest issues comes up as “I’m just so busy.” And I wish I had a magic answer, but the answer is you have to carve out time for yourself. And I know that’s easier said than done.
Dr. Patton McDowell 34:21
One thing that I think our program has, the appreciation for the program is it’s been forced study halls, the mastermind we do in two hour increments, and people who otherwise I think, would not have carved out two hours for themselves, do it because they enrolled in the program. And then many of them say to me what I need to keep doing that. Maybe it’s just two hours every two weeks, which is our frequency. But, Terry, I’m convinced if and I say this in reflection so not at you. All of us need to carve out time for ourselves because I know your to do list is never going to end. And so I’ve, again, the ritual I’ve put in play is sometimes that there’s just one morning a week or a couple hours that I’ve got to block the calendar.
Terry 35:09
I’ve heard it before. And you’re right, you just have to do it.
Rhea Wong 35:13
But here’s the other piece too. And I know this is going to be a controversial take. And I certainly would not have appreciated this as an ED, but I find that most people, not just ED’s, but most people have not really sat down to make the distinction between being busy and being effective. And I think so often what I see with a lot of ED’s, it’s like, there’s a lot of work that they do, but not all of it is actually going to move the needle, not all of it is actually high ROI work. And so, usually this comes with fundraising, I’d be curious about your perspective on this. It’s like, they fill their time doing stuff to avoid doing the stuff that they’re uncomfortable doing, right. So like, I’m, oh, I’m busy doing all my emails, as opposed to calling the funder.
Dr. Patton McDowell 36:02
That’s such a good point. And again, you’re right, there’s a lot of martyrdom in terms of the volume of activity we take on as nonprofit leaders. But the question is exactly what you said, I know you’re busy, but are you busy doing the right things? And so I talked about in the book in that curate knowledge section is I get it, you got a ton of stuff coming at you. How do you though on a regular, I would say weekly basis, organize it and determine the priorities? Because you’re right Rhea, they could spend all their time on doing other stuff. But as a fundraiser this better than anybody, your top donors need relationship management? And are you taking the time to develop these relationships further? Or are you busying yourself on your nonprofit social media, or emails or everything else? You said Rhea because it definitely exists. And I think it’s something we have to cultivate as leaders, sharpening our prioritization skills, so that we’re doing the right things.
Rhea Wong 37:03
We didn’t talk about boards, I want to talk about boards for a second because often I think as an ED, you’ve got the three ring circus going, you’ve got your funders, you’ve got your staff, you got this. And I feel like in theory, boards are supposed to help you to run the organization managed and so on, and in theory actually manage you as an ED. But often, that is not the case. And so boards end up being another thing to manage. So I’m curious, like, where do you see the responsibility of the board coming in with respect to nonprofit leadership and supporting the ED?
Dr. Patton McDowell 37:37
Such a good point. And I do, and it’s, in fact, in my top 10 list, that you as a aspiring nonprofit leader, certainly, as you go higher up on the ladder, are going to have to understand the unique nuances of governance in the nonprofit sector, which includes having a boss or actually a dozen bosses, or however many board members you have. And so I think one staying on top of that, and being proactive in terms of the relationship management of your board. And that’s why again, I think the best leaders treat their board with the relationship management they require. Because like you Rhea, I run into a lot of leaders that come to me exasperated with the either my board is micromanaging me, or they’re disengaged.
Dr. Patton McDowell 38:22
So either way, they’re not helping. And so how do we find that middle ground of effective engagement, but the best nonprofit leaders are proactive, they don’t literally tell the board what to do. But I do think the best ones are proactive, they work in tandem with their board chair, and create an environment that best engages those talented volunteers. Most of those board members are sitting there wondering what they’re supposed to do. And if the nonprofit leader is sitting on the other side, not giving any guidance, I think it’s a recipe for problems.
Rhea Wong 38:53
Yeah, that’s such a good point, Pat. Well, I think the other piece to remember as well is that board members also want to grow and evolve, right? They’re joining the board in order to build their networks, build their skills, and I think we make the assumption that like, just because you’re in finance in your day job, don’t want to be on the finance committee, that may not be true, they may want to do something completely different to build their own skills. And I think we just need to remember that we’re in the business of dealing with human beings who want to grow and learn and evolve.
Dr. Patton McDowell 39:24
That’s such a good point they came to your board likely for with a passion for the cause. And yet, all we do is bombard them with staff reports, and add in fundraising asks, frankly, and yes, we want them to contribute. But you’re right, Rhea. We’re wasting their opportunities for engagement and other ways, which will include investment, I believe, but if we dismiss those other areas, we’re missing out.
Rhea Wong 39:48
Yeah, I mean, I can’t tell you how many EDs telling me in private like I just want them to write a check and get out of my way.
Dr. Patton McDowell 39:55
That’s one way to approach it, but I don’t know.
Rhea Wong 39:57
I don’t know that that’s a recipe for long term success there. All right, we have time for one last question, Renee, you have an excellent question here. I want to get to it, and then we’ll wrap it up.
Renee 40:07
This is such an interesting conversation. But one of the- I think, just thinking about the environment we’re in, and the incredible burnout that you already talked about one of my questions like, and some of these are kind of individual. Okay, go do more self care than that. But what is the community of responsibility at this time, given that this is so pervasive? And have you seen any solutions that are working? I’m just really I think, can we think beyond each EGD needs to save themselves? Yes.
Rhea Wong 40:39
That’s so good, Renee good questions. So I actually just want to call out the Bar Foundation in Boston, because they have a program where EDs can apply to get a funded three months sabbatical. I think as a funder, if you’re really invested in keeping talented leaders in the field, you have to recognize they do need resources, they do need time off, they do need to recharge in order to be the best version of themselves. So I think, I think it’s a funder community issue. I think it’s a board governance issue. And I do think it’s a responsibility of the community, because I’ll just speak for myself personally. One of the things that really burnt me out as an ED is I felt like I was constantly being asked to deal with the care and feeding of my staff. And it wasn’t about the work. It was about the personalities, and it was exhausting. And I’m like, I don’t want to do so anyway, Patton, your thoughts?
Dr. Patton McDowell 41:34
Well, no, I couldn’t agree more, I find it’s such a lonely position, and Renee and Rhea, you’re both touching on it. Because of the reason you just said Rhea, that my board is disengaged, or my staff is turning over, and I’m stuck in the middle. And so I guess, Renee, back to your question, the concept I mentioned, the personal board of directors has been my response for me personally, 15 years ago, and now what I’m trying to coach is creating an intentional small group that can in fact, provide support.
Dr. Patton McDowell 42:06
So what I get into there is literally Who do you want on your personal board. And often it is peers in similar roles. Maybe there’s some aspirational peers, but maybe they’re also just other thought partners that you need, personally, to help you when you are, in fact, stressed out because we all are sometimes in our current environment. And so Renee, that’s one way to strategic networking, and then kind of an amplification of that has been this personal board concept, which I think has created a positive community for those that have tried it.
Rhea Wong 42:40
Yeah, and I just want to double click on something you said, Patton, because I think it’s about community and relationships, because at the end of the day, when we’re in stress, we’re in survival mode, right? Our amygdalas are going crazy. And the way that we bring ourselves into the executive state, as one of my guests, Eugene Choi, would say, is we build relationships with people who can help support us through these times.
Rhea Wong 43:06
So last question for me and sort of a fun question. I didn’t ask for you in advance, but if you had a metaphorical Billboard, and you could communicate anything to the world, aside from multi year unrestricted funding,
Dr. Patton McDowell 43:18
you’ve already taken that one, right?
Rhea Wong 43:21
Yeah, well that’s my impression on billboard. But what would be on your billboard?
Dr. Patton McDowell 43:23
Carve time out for yourself? Fine. It came up today. And it comes up in so many of and it sounds so logical, but I am convinced is one who was a victim of not taking that advice. I just, I really believe there’s such talent and energy in our sector, but we’re losing it for the reasons we’ve discussed today, the burnout and other things. So find time for yourself that you can unplug, like you said, from sabbaticals to maybe it’s just one hour a week, that your time but those successful leaders, I’m finding as busy as they are, do in fact, carve out that time and to me, that is essential for their mental health as well as the success of their organization.
Rhea Wong 44:09
It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Bruce Lee, “Be like water.” And so, if we can maintain our smooth equanimity, right, if we can flow, we can be like water.
Dr. Patton McDowell, 44:22
Well put, perfect.
Rhea Wong 44:24
Alright, friend, where can people find you on the interwebs? I’m going to make sure to put all of your links in the show notes for folks listening to you on the podcast, but where would you like for folks to connect?
Dr. Patton McDowell 44:34
Well, grateful for that. I’m active on LinkedIn. So Patton McDowell or PMA Nonprofit Leadership on LinkedIn, the website is pattonmcdowell.com and there you can find information about the book, the podcasts speaking that I’m doing, and the mastermind program that I’ve described during this conversation.
Rhea Wong 44:53
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation. You and I could go on for days but unfortunately, time is not our friend so thanks very much, thanks everyone have a good day!
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