In this interview with Jason Frazell, we discuss the three levels of listening and how they can impact our ability to connect with others, particularly in the context of fundraising.
Listen in to find out the difference between pretend listening, active listening, and energetic listening.
We also discuss how the need to be right or how operating in scarcity can keep us in a transactional, not relational state.
To learn more about Jason Frazell and his work on listening and connection, visit his website at https://www.jasonfrazell.com/
QUOTE FROM JASON “Pay attention when the words do not align with a person’s energy”
Episode Transcript
RHEA WONG 00:00
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I’m your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners! Welcome once again to Nonprofit Lowdown. Today, my guest is Jason Frazell.
RHEA WONG 00:10
We’re going to talk about listening and speaking with intent. So Jason is an executive coach, a brand strategist, a speaker, a podcaster, and more importantly, a dad. Jason, welcome to the show.
JASON FRAZELL 00:25
Thanks! I’m glad to be here. Good to see those of you who are with us. Thanks for joining.
RHEA WONG 00:29
So just before we jump into it, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey.
JASON FRAZELL 00:34
Yeah! I’m a diehard Vikings fan. I’m from Minnesota, originally. Professionally. I was in sales and technology sales, and I worked at a couple of large corporate firms. And then I moved out to New York and continued the same.
JASON FRAZELL 00:49
And then I realized I didn’t want to work at big companies anymore. And I did a whole bunch of startup work. And then, about four years ago, I wanted to do something for myself, which way I know that it’s your journey as well.
JASON FRAZELL 01:02
And I took the plunge and started my own coaching firm. And it’s since expanded into some of the things that you would introduce me to. So in a nutshell, my journey was corporate, corporate, corporate, and then smaller startups, so now I work for myself and I coach, mostly people in technology, and tech, like high tech, big tech, startups.
JASON FRAZELL 01:22
I do some speaking, you know, I’m a podcaster, as well. And I also do personal brand strategy work for literally people that are their own brand. So generally people that are authors, speakers, and consultants have their own brand. Amongst some other interesting and not so related things. And I’m a dad like you said.
RHEA WONG 01:39
Let’s talk about this because I knew that you’re in your executive coaching, where you worked with folks who are high performers, and executives in their field, what are some of the ways that you help them to kind of breakthrough to the next level?
RHEA WONG 01:50
Because I know we have a lot of folks listening who are nonprofit executives who are thinking about how to move up in their careers. What are the things that hold us back?
JASON FRAZELL 01:57
Yeah! The number one thing that I would say that I do with high performers is to offer them other places to look at how they’re coming into something. Usually, what holds us back is, myself included, and I am not the expert.
JASON FRAZELL 02:16
I do this for others. And I also have my own challenges with this myself. It’s where we have the need to be right. Or, we are unwilling my coaches always this is the hill you want to die on. Like, oh, I am willing to actually create political problems at my company, I’m willing to go and piss off my team if I’m a leader.
JASON FRAZELL 02:37
If I’m not a leader, I’m willing to go and like make waves in my career. Because I’m so compassionate about this thing. But a lot of times, it’s just because they want to be right. Not because it really matters.
JASON FRAZELL 02:49
And for those of you who are in romantic relationships, like me, this is not just a work thing. Where do you have to be right in your marriage, in your partnership, or even in your friendships? So that’s the number one thing.
JASON FRAZELL 03:03
Number two is offering and looking at things outside of just problems. I think this is similar to the work you do. And I don’t know what everybody else listening does here. But people bring problems all day, mostly. Hey, this isn’t working.
JASON FRAZELL 03:21
This isn’t working. How do we make it better? How do we optimize? And sometimes taking a look at what is actually really a problem. Or, is it an opportunity? What’s the yes-end for talking about the problem?
JASON FRAZELL 03:33
Also Rhea, you know I talked about this, like, what’s the no-end? I’m saying no to doing something else because I’m here with you all, which is a no to something else. And I get to be here with you all. And I get the benefits of that.
JASON FRAZELL 03:46
And it’s great. And that’s a choice I made. And then finally, a lot of it is sounding board type of stuff, too. So just to give you an example, one of my clients, had marketing left. And he had somebody who wanted to take on the role, but he didn’t think they were ready.
JASON FRAZELL 04:05
We had an hour-long conversation about his beliefs and his intuition about that. And it ended up that he wanted to be right that she wasn’t ready. And then he actually gave her that promotion.
JASON FRAZELL 04:16
So like things like that. And then also, when we’re talking about tech, we’re always talking about raising funds, growing the company.
JASON FRAZELL 04:24
Quite frankly right now in the industry, do we need to shrink a little bit and have an outside perspective to just talk about that, where I don’t actually have an agenda for them other than to support them? It’s very valuable. So like those conversations can be wide open. And I’m just generally a sounding board.
RHEA WONG 04:41
So much of what you’re saying is important, I think because in nonprofits I feel like we are reluctant to invest in things like executive coaches and yet, Serena Williams does not walk onto a court without a coach, like Steph Curry needs to coach, like the best need coaches in order to get better.
RHEA WONG 05:00
And I just appreciate the fact that you’re talking about creating space for people to be a sounding board, because often it’s lonely at the top, right? Like you’re the only one who’s dealing with the problems that you’re dealing with. So you need someone to talk to you about that.
JASON FRAZELL 05:12
Yeah! I like that you said that. I didn’t really understand this either because I never worked with a coach until about five years ago. So I didn’t really know what coaching was either. It’s the idea that it’s just also more fun to not do it alone.
JASON FRAZELL 05:29
And that’s worth something. And to be able to have a conversation, and I always say that everybody in our life has an agenda for us. We know our kids do it all the time. They always want something from us.
JASON FRAZELL 05:44
We know our significant others do if they have. If we have a significant other, our friends, of course, our bosses do, if we’re a leader, the people that work for us, too. So everybody has an agenda.
JASON FRAZELL 05:57
I don’t actually have an agenda. It’s what Rhea, as my client, wants to create a what she wants. It’s arguably the only place besides maybe therapy, where there’s actually no agenda. And that is tremendously valuable, tremendously valuable.
JASON FRAZELL 06:11
Just to give you an example, for nonprofits, donors want something from you. And it’s usually more than just like their name on a plaque, whether they say it or not. Your board is going to want something from you.
JASON FRAZELL 06:22
And then, of course, the people that work for you and your constituents, the people you serve, of course, they’re going to want something from you. That’s why you’re there.
RHEA WONG 06:30
So you said something I’d love to dig into. You said beliefs. And I think so much of what holds us back or the stuff that creates drama, or mind drama for us, are the belief systems that we have. Can you dig a little bit deeper into how you uncover these beliefs? And then how do you change these beliefs?
JASON FRAZELL 06:47
Yeah! So the way I look at coaching is, it’s not my job to change your belief. It’s my job to point out that you have a belief many times because as humans, what we like to do is we like to lean into our beliefs. And some of these will come from how we were raised.
JASON FRAZELL 07:05
For those of us who grew up in some sort of spiritual or religious household, a lot of that comes from religion, a lot of it comes from the media of like, this is a belief. This is how it’s going to be or this is how I should be.
JASON FRAZELL 07:15
And a lot of it comes from the educational system, no matter what kind of educational system you come through. And it’s great. There’s nothing wrong with any of that. That’s what gives us structure.
JASON FRAZELL 07:26
That’s what makes us I think productive humans in the world. And there’s always going to be some limits to all of those things. So let me give you an example. And I’m going to speak for myself here because I like to do that.
JASON FRAZELL 07:39
I grew up in a fairly religious home, I would say. Like, were not anything crazy, but we had some beliefs. And what that taught me at a very young age is there’s a right and wrong way to do things.
JASON FRAZELL 07:52
There are good and bad. And if you don’t do the right things, then you’re going to have these consequences. And if you do bad things, you’re a bad person. So I spent most of my life probably still in some ways today with that belief system because it’s inherently inside of me.
JASON FRAZELL 08:10
And one of the outputs of my coaching work with my coach that I’ve worked on for five years is, what if there’s a gray? What if there’s more opportunity in the middle? And I can say for a fact that limiting belief is like, oh, it’s right or wrong.
JASON FRAZELL 08:25
And also, I came from a sales background. So it’s like you either close the deal, or you don’t close the deal, and you either make the money or you don’t. And then you either make your quota or you don’t.
JASON FRAZELL 08:34
And then you either get fired, or you don’t. And the truth of it is, that’s not necessarily the case. I’m sure this is how it goes in the nonprofit world, too, as we either raise the funds we need, or we make that mean something about us that we’re bad. We’re bad at the company, or we’re not doing the right things.
JASON FRAZELL 08:49
And it’s not to say that that isn’t sometimes the case. But it’s to say that it’s not always the case. If you’re able to take a look at that and look at it and this is for everybody looking at what we call this context and coaching.
JASON FRAZELL 09:00
It’s the lens you see the world through. So if you see the world, it’s black and white, good and bad. You’re gonna see everything going on around you in a certain way. And it’s November 10, we just had elections two days ago.
JASON FRAZELL 09:14
And you see, this is how it generally plays out in politics. This is right. This is wrong. This person is bad. This person is good. And like being able to shift that context.
JASON FRAZELL 09:23
So that’s one of the main parts of coaching is being able to take a look with people about what else is possible, besides what you know to be true or not even what you know to be true. It’s all you know.
RHEA WONG 09:34
Yeah! And I think I know you just had Eugene Choi on your podcast. He’s been on my podcast. I think is brilliant. But I think, especially in today’s society, where it just feels like everything is so ratcheted up, when we’re in that survival mindset, we see the world as black and white. It’s either yes or no, good or bad. It’s really hard to hold the complexity in our brains when we’re freaked out about the state of the world.
JASON FRAZELL 09:58
It’s super useful. I mean, Eugene talks about this. Hey, I’m hungry. I need to eat or I’m going to die. Hey, that animal over there could kill me, I need to run away, or I need to kill it. There are some pretty binary things.
JASON FRAZELL 10:15
If you observe animals, they still have those binary things. As humans, we’ve evolved in some ways, but in a lot of ways we haven’t. And Eugene and I actually talked about this about that part of our brain, which Eugene will talk about is we’re in that part of our brain more often than we’re not, like 70%, 30% of survival state versus executive state.
JASON FRAZELL 10:35
So to give you an example in coaching, I’ll ask a client, they’ll come in, they’ll have a mantra. Hey, I got a problem, we got to solve. Okay, where’s this coming from? We need to do it now because the investor is going to be mad. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. Actually, I’ve never asked them.
JASON FRAZELL 10:51
Okay, so, being able to shift or have somebody say, what else might be possible? And you might be spot on, right? You might be like, oh, that person is so mad at me. And you’re like, I don’t know, is that true? And then they go ask me like, I’m so mad at you. It happens all the time. But it’s a place to offer a different place to look.
RHEA WONG 11:10
Yeah! I love that. It’s sort of opening the different options that are available before jumping down this road. Let’s switch the conversation a little bit because I think your sales experience is relevant to the audience listening.
RHEA WONG 11:24
So a lot of times we talk about how sales and fundraising are very similar. You and I first connected and I was really struck by your analysis of the three kinds of listening. So in fundraising, we talk about fundraising as actually listening. But I’d love for you to break it down into three levels of listening because not all listening is the same. And I think this is really interesting.
JASON FRAZELL 11:46
Yeah! So I’m a big believer in giving credit. So this is not just my idea. This comes from a coach training program in thought leaders corrective training institute. It’s a great coaching program, not the one I went through, but I highly respect them.
JASON FRAZELL 12:02
And by the way, there’s also a model of five levels of listening, too. So there’s a model for everything. But for this one, I’m gonna talk about three levels of listening. Level one, you’re listening through your own agenda, which is where most humans listened most of the time.
JASON FRAZELL 12:20
So I would assert that those that are live with us here, and for the podcast, you’re listening to your own agenda, what’s valuable? What can I use? What can I tactically take away? And by the way, none of these levels are wrong.
JASON FRAZELL 12:36
There’s a tremendous amount of value in listening through that lens, like what’s valuable. I’ll give you an example here. Well, an overarching example is listening through the lens of value. How is this valuable? How is this not valuable?
JASON FRAZELL 12:50
This is how most people listen to most people. When Rhea comes in and gives me a pitch on why I should work with her, do I believe that she is going to provide a value that I’m going to invest in?
JASON FRAZELL 13:02
Because that’s easy for most people. And it removes the ability to see outside of the value conversation because the value is subjective. So now we’re talking about sales. We’re talking about fundraising. Value is subjective.
JASON FRAZELL 13:15
So if you go, well, is it valuable enough? That’s your own interpretation of the value. And that’s great. And there’s a lot of use to that. So number one is you’re listening through your own agenda. What’s in it for you?
JASON FRAZELL 13:26
Where can you insulate people listening with all sorts of agendas? Let me give you a few. People can listen for I’m right. I like to listen to that one. People can listen for, oh, I’m wrong. Some people have a pull towards like, oh, how can I be wrong?
JASON FRAZELL 13:43
And that usually comes from like an a-not-enough type of context. Like where else can I listen to this to prove that I’m not enough? This is where impostor syndrome comes from. So if you have impostor syndrome, and you know what that is, and you go into a room, and you share some things, and you’re listening for like, where am I?
JASON FRAZELL 13:58
Do I not belong here? You’re gonna spot those places where you think you don’t belong. Some people will listen how am I alone? Like, how am I not likable? How am I not agreeable? And then there are all sorts of other ways to listen.
JASON FRAZELL 14:12
So you can just be thinking about so the practice I’d have for everybody here is, as you’re going out and listening and doing the work that you do and doing this in your personalized, what are you listening for? So that’s listening level one. And that’s the level that we all get trained on.
RHEA WONG 14:27
What I want to point out here, too, which you will lead, too, is confirmation bias. Right? So to go back to your earlier point, if we have beliefs about the world, that I’m not enough, we don’t belong and don’t get to have the things we want. I will then pick up all of the confirmation that that is true, because like my brain is primed to look for those things.
JASON FRAZELL 14:48
Yeah! The technical coaching jargon is context. And what we say is context is definitive. So if you have a context that you’re not good enough, or you have a context that your startup can’t raise capital.
JASON FRAZELL 15:03
The thing about being human that’s both brilliant and challenging is our ego likes to be right no matter what we say to it. So if you say, hey, do you know what? I’m unlovable. Or, hey! I’m a great leader. Your ego, your subconscious ego is always going to be constantly looking for proof of that thing.
JASON FRAZELL 15:21
So think about it. For those who have a relationship of any type, like a romantic relationship, if you think of your partner, think about their most annoying trait, like the thing that annoys you the most. And then you think about like, well, I’m just gonna make one up, they’re not clean.
JASON FRAZELL 15:40
What are you reliably going to do? You’re going to spot very easily all the ways where they’re not clean. I mean, much harder for you to spot where they might actually be doing a good job with that. Or, where they, oh, like they actually have done the thing.
JASON FRAZELL 15:53
So this is one of the challenges in romantic relationships. We have strong context about our partners, and then we’re always looking for proof of them. Because our ego likes to be right about it.
RHEA WONG 16:03
Quick question! So what if my belief system is like, I’m awesome? I’m incredible. And I look around for confirmation of that. What’s the fine line between, I hate the term positive thinking, but you know, sort of positive reinforcement and being a psychopath? Do you know what I’m saying?
JASON FRAZELL 16:19
Yeah! Well, first of all, I don’t know anybody who has that thought pattern all the time. And I work with some pretty senior people who, if they were here, it’d be that person who makes a ton of money. And they do really well.
JASON FRAZELL 16:29
They don’t think that way all the time. None of us do. I know, I don’t. I’m pretty sure you don’t, Rhea. And we live in New York where people like to put that on. But when you do think, yeah, you’re looking for proof of it. Close the big deal. I closed the big donor. Oh, we got a big win.
JASON FRAZELL 16:47
There’s nothing wrong with that, where it becomes toxic, in my opinion. And let’s do something very timely. I don’t know anything about him other than what I see in the news. But Elon Musk seems to have a context about himself that has him removed from some other, being a good human is what I would call it.
JASON FRAZELL 17:05
And what would be possible if you could combine all that into one thing, with almost resources and the ability to influence people and markets and also do it with kindness, in any way he asked to do?
JASON FRAZELL 17:19
I’m not saying he’s a psychopath. I don’t know. But it becomes where you think you’re so good. I do believe pride cometh before the false. So people that think they’re so good generally will get theirs, and people that are unwilling to be humble as well.
JASON FRAZELL 17:34
So humbleness is a context. I’m humbled. The context I grew up with in Midwest, just the way I grew up as we were humble. So even if we think we’re gonna be don’t talk about it, that’s a context. If you are different from what you’re like, I am just good.
JASON FRAZELL 17:49
Then, nothing wrong with that. You’re always going to be looking for proof of how you can prove to people that you are really good. And also those people generally don’t believe that about themselves, if you got them behind closed doors, or you were able to get inside their own self-talk.
RHEA WONG 18:05
Alright, and the other thing I just wanted to say about level one, listening is it feels like, that’s kind of the transactional level, right? It’s like, I want this. I give you X. You give me Y, right? And it’s very superficial. So what’s the next level of listening?
JASON FRAZELL 18:22
Yeah! The next level of listening is listening through curiosity, through the context, or the filter of curiosity. Let’s take an example with you and me right here right now on this podcast, and on this webinar, right?
JASON FRAZELL 18:36
The transactional level, oh, she wants me to answer in question for the audience,, which is true. And by the way, these stack on top of each other. They are not mutually exclusive, where you go, I’m only a level two listener now.
JASON FRAZELL 18:49
That is an impossible thing to do. But the curiosity I have then is, what’s the value for you all in my answer here? And that’s a curiosity to have for me, like, curiously asking, you know we’re going to talk about this, too.
JASON FRAZELL 19:05
What I want you all to know, and how much of it is about me with my own agenda and what I actually believe to be true. So this is an example where level two listening also you can do with yourself, which I think we’re going to talk about this a little bit later.
JASON FRAZELL 19:20
But for example, if you’re talking about fundraising, you’re talking to a big donor. And they’re telling you all the reasons that they think you might be the right place for them to put their money. They’re not telling you everything, almost 100% of the time.
JASON FRAZELL 19:35
The curiosity would be, oh, I’m telling you because it makes important. I care about this cause most people, not all, most people go, oh, I’m so glad you care about this cause. When are we getting your check? What is it about this cause that you’re so passionate about?
JASON FRAZELL 19:53
It’s a curiosity-based question. The thing I’ll say to everybody is one of the things I learned in coaching is you don’t really ever ask why questions. Because why generally implies some sort of judgment. Why are you doing this? Why are we on this podcast? Why are you all here today? What and how questions.
JASON FRAZELL 20:13
What is it about this nonprofit that has you passionate? How would you like your money to make a difference? Those are questions that don’t have a lens of judgment. It’s purely like a curiosity-based question.
JASON FRAZELL 20:25
And so, you know, I always like to have takeaways, my agenda from level one is, once you have takeaways, where can you get more curious about what’s being said? And that’s, I know, gonna lead us to point number three.
JASON FRAZELL 20:36
But level two listening is from curiosity, doing your best to remove your agenda, and just being present. This is also when people are like, oh, my gosh! She’s such a good listener. It’s usually because that person is listening from level two, not level one.
RHEA WONG 20:54
And I just want to earmark here for those who are out there fundraising is, it’s often hard to get into level two, or even level three listening, when you feel the pressure of I gotta close a gift, right?
RHEA WONG 21:07
So how do we manage this sort of anxiety that we might feel to get really transactional? Because I have pressures to close a gift because it feels like level two and level three are really about letting a moment unfold.
JASON FRAZELL 21:20
Yeah! It’s very challenging. And let’s talk about our friend, Dr. Eugene, again, when you’re in a survival state, which is we need this cheque to come in by the end of the month, or we can’t make payroll, just using a random example here.
JASON FRAZELL 21:39
You’re gonna be in a survival state, most likely, because your brain actually believes that surviving, like not dying in certain ways. So it’s hard because level one is easy for all of us because we’re trained in it.
JASON FRAZELL 21:53
So you’re going to naturally go there. So I don’t have a good answer for you on how to because the how-to would be unique to each person and the way that they process. What I would say is meditation, getting present to what’s true for you, breath work, like things that would calm you.
JASON FRAZELL 22:11
And again, please check out Eugene, we’re promoting him, which is one of the things that you present in your executive state. Because in your executive state, you’re going to realize we do need that cheque. But we’re actually going to survive.
JASON FRAZELL 22:23
And there are other opportunities. And there are other things there. So I know for me, I find, especially in my sales career before, I knew any of this lovely stuff, which would have been really helpful a few years ago.
JASON FRAZELL 22:34
But, at the end of the quarter, when your boss says we need this to come in, you’re in pure survival mode. And you’re going to be listening for how quickly can I close this deal. How quickly can I close this donor?
JASON FRAZELL 22:43
What’s the buying sign they’re going to say? And unless the people listening here are just much more skilled at this sent me. A yes isn’t always a yes. And a yes in Level one is usually going to feel like a yes. Oh, my gosh! We got it.
JASON FRAZELL 22:58
And then with no curiosity, you’re like, oh, well, they’re actually not the decision maker. They now need to go talk to the board. I mean, I think anybody who has ever raised money, either through sales or through nonprofit work will know that a yes is not a yes.
JASON FRAZELL 23:11
When you’re talking to people who have other decision-makers and getting curious, even the curiosity question is great. So who else in the organization is really passionate about this? Who else do we need to talk to? So that’s, you know, at a nutshell, like that’s level two is curiosity-based questions.
RHEA WONG 23:27
And the thing I just wanted to flag here is so often the way that we’re taught to fundraise or to do sales is like the ABC always be a closing paradigm. It does not work. And it feels really disgusting. Because we’re actually not creating relationships and connections. We’re looking at people like they’re walking checkbooks. And so I think we have to help the field unlearn all of these bad toxic habits.
JASON FRAZELL 23:52
Yeah! Well, I saw an article on LinkedIn yesterday about this, about how a lot of people who recruit for sales are having trouble with the newest generation coming out of college because of the negative connotation around it.
JASON FRAZELL 24:04
Because that’s still the thing. But the truth of it is, I always relate to myself as a salesperson. You’re a salesperson, too. You can buy things from me. It’s my service. You all can find out a lot about me before you ever talk to me.
JASON FRAZELL 24:18
You can find out about 90% of what you need on the internet about most things, including nonprofits or donors. Like it’s mostly out there. So the days of having the salesperson, be your go-to for information are gone.
JASON FRAZELL 24:31
So for me, all I really have is to build a relationship with you and make sure it’s a good fit. And that gets really challenging when you’re under a timeline when you’re in a survival state. I’m not going to say, oh, yeah, if you can just do level two listening, it’s going to be easier. It’s not going to be easy.
JASON FRAZELL 24:45
That’s why it’s a constant practice. And it’s never going to be perfect. So it’s just something to continue to practice and quite frankly, Rhea, to be the awareness that it exists is usually a game changer for a lot of people. There actually is another thing to do. It’s another way to listen.
RHEA WONG 25:02
Yeah! I mean, anyone listening to the podcast, knows that I am on a single-woman mission to ditch the pitch. I think we teach nonprofits that like you did up the pitch and like the tent, like the five-second elevator pitch, and I have never raised money off the back of a pitch.
RHEA WONG 25:19
There’s no magical combination of words that I am going to say to get you to write a check, right? It’s about relationships. It’s about marrying the work that we’re doing with who you believe you are in the world and the value and impact you want to have. And it’s an invitation, right? It’s a combining of resources, not like extractive like I do this, you do that.
JASON FRAZELL 25:44
Yeah, it’s like a transactional or scarcity mindset. The scarcity context of well, if I get the money here, then I can’t get here. Well, in a way, that’s true. But there are also other things to look outside of that.
RHEA WONG 25:55
Okay! So level one is listening with an agenda. Level two is listening with curiosity. What’s the magical level three?
JASON FRAZELL 26:02
Yeah! Oh, my gosh! It’s so magical. It’s actually not magical. It’s just something that most people, I’m just gonna speak for myself that I wasn’t really aware of, so the way what we call this in coaching is listening to the whole of the client.
JASON FRAZELL 26:18
Or you would say this in the real world outside of jargon paying attention to what’s going on with a client’s body language, their energy, and the space around them. So everybody’s listening, I want you to think about the time you had a sales call or a pitch like you said, a pitch or a donor meeting, and you were with the person and it all sounded good, but you knew, but there was something wacky with the energy.
JASON FRAZELL 26:45
I would be shocked if everybody listening hasn’t been there. It’s a thing wacky, or maybe it’s phonetic or maybe they’re extra relaxed. Listening through that lens and in coaching specifically, is really a coaching thing. If you’re my client here, Rhea, I saw you really light up about something that we talked about.
JASON FRAZELL 27:01
I would say, hey! It felt really lit up. There’s anything to explore. The way you would do this in a sales context would be, hey, you seem really passionate. It lands for me like you’re really passionate about this, is there anything you’d like to tell me about that?
JASON FRAZELL 27:14
Noticing what was going on to the body, humans were pretty bad. And most humans are pretty bad at hiding excitement. And pretty bad about hiding disappointment, or frustration. Most of us, like to think we’re good. We got a stone-cold face.
JASON FRAZELL 27:31
We don’t show any emotion. But humans are notorious for microexpressions, where we can’t actually hide those things. So we’re going to look at a great resource for micro expressions. Vanessa Van Edwards talks a lot about micro-expressions.
JASON FRAZELL 27:44
You know, Vanessa, she’s been a guest on my podcast. She’s awesome. Again, it’s survival state stuff. It’s the same, and we do them to show that we’re either safe, or we’re not as a mammal.
JASON FRAZELL 27:58
The dogs do microexpressions all the time. We do them as humans and we can’t control them. That’s the whole purpose behind them. And I’m not saying you have to become an expert on microexpressions. I’m not an expert on it.
JASON FRAZELL 28:10
Also, I think for people that are doing fundraising in the nonprofit world, the thing that really you can pay attention to is where do the words not aligned with the energy of the person. And one of the things that I do not believe the education system ever trains us for is how to pay attention to the whole of a person and the energy of a person.
JASON FRAZELL 28:28
I think most of us intuitively were pretty aware of the energy. You know, when you meet somebody, you’re delighted, like, oh, this is my person. There’s an energetic match there.
JASON FRAZELL 28:35
And I’m not talking to romantic just like, hey, I want to get to know this person, or you meet someone, you’re like, oh, this is not my person. It’s another place where you can pay attention to what’s coming up and what’s in the space that might have you limit possibility there.
JASON FRAZELL 28:49
Remember, this is where, hey, it seems like, what’s nice about coaching is you have a relationship with the persons who say, hey, something just feels, I’m just noticing that something for me. It lands is off today. Is there anything we need to address?
JASON FRAZELL 29:04
You can do that at a sales context. You seem like you’re really busy. It’is now a good time to have this conversation. And this is where again, you can do this on Zoom or any virtual platform. In person, it’s even better.
JASON FRAZELL 29:16
And I will offer this, too, the whole of the space can be what’s going on around them. So does their office feel frenetic? Or, there’s a lot of stuff everywhere. Is it barren? People’s space will say something about them.
JASON FRAZELL 29:34
You just want to be careful. You don’t overinterpret it, but it generally says something about us, especially when we’re in our space. It means something about us. And so paying attention all those.
JASON FRAZELL 29:43
So if you take one, you’re always going to be listening for the agenda because what it’s our brain does in certain ways. Where can I become more curious about what’s being said or also what’s not being said? What’s the underlying meaning of the words? What am I curious about? And then what’s happening?
JASON FRAZELL 30:00
What’s happening outside of the words being expressed? Combining those three allows you to go much deeper and build relationships with people and get to their truth much faster in what I think is in a way, that’s ethical.
JASON FRAZELL 30:18
And it’s actually an integrity because you’re actually meeting people where they’re at, as opposed to really, you said this, the idea of like sales, like, here’s all these techniques that you can do and psychological and make the pain so high that they have to do it.
JASON FRAZELL 30:31
That can work. But what’s likely to happen is they’re likely to not be a donor for the next year or the year after, if they don’t feel that orange sales. They’re likely to not rebuy from you. So, in a long nutshell, it’s a big nutshell. Those are the three levels of listing.
JASON FRAZELL 30:48
Again, if you want to know more about that, it’s Co-Active Training Institute. You can look up three levels of listening if you Google that.
RHEA WONG 30;55
Yes! And I love this so much. Because really, at the end of the day, whether you’re in sales, or fundraising, or whatever you’re doing, it’s about trust building. And people will not trust you if they don’t feel like you care about them, that you’re noticing things about them, and that you’re listening to them. Right? And so, this brings me to my next question, which is, what is the acronym WAIT?
JASON FRAZELL 31:19
Yeah! WAIT… So it’s spelled just like the English word for WAIT, not the weight of your body, but the WAIT of like, WAIT. And it stands for, and I’m gonna use a word that I said I don’t use before. Why Am I Talking?
JASON FRAZELL 31:40
Again, Why Am I Talking? That’s what it stands for. I didn’t make it up. I have my friend Christine credit for it, but it just really has always sat with me. And something you can ask yourself, especially going to practice level two listening.
JASON FRAZELL 31:59
To level one listening and communicating, why we were talking is same reasons. To be right, be wrong, to convince, to persuade, to push somebody away, to attract, and all those things. Nothing wrong with any of those things done, you know, with moderation.
JASON FRAZELL 32:22
But this is one of the things that we learned in coach training, or we train new coaches on him, why are you sharing in the session? Are you sharing because you want the client to like you? Are you sharing because they want you to think that you’re brilliant, or you’re credible?
JASON FRAZELL 32:36
Because you know what you’re talking about. Do you want them to think that you’re on their side? All good things. In sales, the way that shows up is a slimy salesperson. Persuasion turns into just annoyance of like, those things how this shows up, is over-explaining.
JASON FRAZELL 32:54
Most of us are probably at a client go, oh, this sounds really good. I think I’ve got what I need. But I got some more value for you. I need to tell you. The curious question, there would be that excellent. So it sounds like you got everything you need.
JASON FRAZELL 33:11
Is there anything else that you think would be useful for you as you go and propose this to the board? But for my level one was listening, we’re either going to accept the answer, or we’re going to more value, more value, more value…
JASON FRAZELL 33:24
And I do a lot of coaching with salespeople, young salespeople are notorious for providing so much value when the client doesn’t actually want it, or they’re already sold, or they already know.
RHEA WONG 33:36
Well, that leads me to the next question, though, because I know when I’m training, fundraisers, they over talk. So they’re in the ask if they’re nervous. They talk too much about the thing.
RHEA WONG 33:47
They talked too much about the organization and they’ve lost an opportunity to actually connect and ask good questions and get to that deeper level of understanding. What are some of the ways that we can train ourselves not to over-talk in an ask for it and sale?
JASON FRAZELL 34:01
Number one, Rhea, what would you like to get out of our time together today? How do pitch meetings usually go? Rhea, today, I’ve got a slide deck, and I’m going to walk you through it. And I’m going to tell you about our organization and all the things we do.
JASON FRAZELL 34;17
Now, you can actually have that question before the meeting. And they might say we want to see your pitch deck. Great! We’re going to bring our pitch deck. So number one is always put it to the client or the potential client, the prospect, and the donor around what they would like to get out of it.
JASON FRAZELL 34:34
Number two, if you’re doing a pitch, and you’re using slides specifically, if you want to build a relationship, you’re not going to build relationships through reading stats, and figures on slides.
JASON FRAZELL 34:52
So I always look to what can the client already know or what can they read or what can you send them ahead of time. That then you can bride provide them context for that they could not get context around otherwise.
JASON FRAZELL 35:04
Same with sales bits and bytes, speeds and feeds, oh, let’s let me tell you how the software works and how it does this. Most buyers can read that stuff. So that’s another way to do it and check-in.
JASON FRAZELL 35:18
And checking in doesn’t necessarily just mean, hey, do you have any questions? Because in a sales context, speaking for myself, what I’m really asking you is, do you get it? And are you ready to move forward?
JASON FRAZELL 35:28
And are you going to buy from me? Like truly checking in, hey, is it like, is anything here, does this align with the vision of what you would see for a nonprofit you’d want to donate to? Do you have any questions about that?
JASON FRAZELL 35:47
Like, is anything not clear here? Or what do you think of our mission? How many times do you ask a client what they actually think of what you’re selling? And in this case, you know, selling or donating to, like, actually ask them what they think.
JASON FRAZELL 36:01
That’s not about what would you like to invest. Or would you like to buy it? Or like, actually, what do you think? Not often. I know my sales career was not like, so what do you really think about the product and be like, oh, so do you think it’s a good thing for you to buy? Because that’s how we’re trained?
JASON FRAZELL 36:16
So it’s like, give it back to the client or potential client, and just check in with them around how things are going, like, what questions like what do they need? And then practice your level two and level three listening. But what’s not being said? Because there are always things that aren’t being said in any sort of sales relationship.
RHEA WONG 36:34
Yeah! I really coach the people I train around this to think about 75% of them talking and 25% of you talking. And I often talk about thinking about it like a date, like you wouldn’t go on a first date with a pitch deck and my resume and, oh, I went to school and this is my… Well, you could you probably wouldn’t get a second date, right?
RHEA WONG 36:56
But if you actually approach it, like, hey, this is a moment that we can get to know each other. Do we like each other? Do we want to do business together? Is my view of the world aligned with your view of the world? Then let’s talk.
JASON FRAZELL 37:17
Yeah, exactly! I love that. It’s like, are we aligned? That’s right. That’s great. Does this feel in alignment? But you don’t ask it from, oh, it is great. So how when can we get the money? When can we transact? Like, Oh, great. Just being curious about it.
RHEA WONG 37:26
Because that feels like, great! We had a great first date, do you wanna get married? Go to Vegas right now. Probably not a non-starter. Alright, a great question coming in from Ashley.
ASHELY 37:38
I was just saying, or thinking that I know, I wear my emotions on my face. I just and how much I guess are the people that we’re meeting with. Doing what you’re saying, I guess they’re looking at me maybe for, what’s not being said. And I guess that’s on my face. So how important is that for somebody?
ASHELY 38:01
I’m kind of fundraising, to have a poker face or show your emotions. And that’s what makes you relatable, and that, you know, makes you connect with people. So I’m just wondering your take on that.
JASON FRAZELL 38:11
Yeah! Thanks, Ashley. It’s a great question. Would you consider yourself a passionate person?
ASHELY 38:16
When I’m talking about. when I’m doing this particular nonprofit. yes, I’m very passionate about it.
JASON FRAZELL 38:22
Yeah! It can already tell you to answer the question. It’s great. Again, you can hear in your voice, actually, it’s great. So this is again, this is not a right or wrong question, a right or wrong answer. This is just my perspective on it.
JASON FRAZELL 38:38
You should bring as much passion as you want to the things that you’re actually passionate about. And one of the things I know about people in nonprofits is they’re generally quite passionate about what they’re talking about, which makes people that work in nonprofits amazing.
JASON FRAZELL 38:52
Because not all people in corporate are passionate about it. Like you’re actually doing good in the world in some way shape, or like, some corporations do that. So I would encourage you to keep that authentic passion.
JASON FRAZELL 39:04
So that’s the question about the poker faces, people are going to hear it in your voice. And they’re going to like, Rhea and I like hear just from your question, even when you’re on mute. Like we heard in your voice.
JASON FRAZELL 39:15
So there’s going to be no surprise there. In terms of like the other side of that, so maybe it’s something around like disappointment or frustration that I do. You know, well, I guess I would ask you, Ashley, the other side of that coin, what other emotions do you know that you were in your face or have been told that you do?
JASON FRAZELL 39:37
I’ll just assume that you’ve either received the feedback or you know this to be true that also you can’t hide disappointment very well, or frustration or something like anger or sadness. You just only present what you want the client or the person to know.
JASON FRAZELL 39:54
And of course, people intuitively know when you’re selling something or raising capital that you’re going to be disappointed if they say no. Like it’s not a secret. I love this thing that like a lot of people like to pretend to do that there aren’t sales going on all the time.
JASON FRAZELL 40:13
You’re like, oh, we’re just here to, we’re just here to educate. You’re like, no! We’re here to hopefully create a mutually beneficial conversation and a mutually beneficial relationship. So, you know, for everybody listening here, I would just say, that’s a personal choice on the negative, like not even negative, those aren’t negative emotions.
JASON FRAZELL 40:29
They’re just emotions. Passion is contagious. For almost all of us, it is something that humans do. So Ashley, what I was saying is, keep the passion. If there’s like a frustration or sadness or something on the other side that you’ve been told, like, oh, I can tell when you’re disappointed.
JASON FRAZELL 40:47
That’s a personal choice. People are also going to know when you’re disappointed usually in the messaging. They’re going to know. If you’re fundraising and you get to a no, people are going to know that’s not what you want to hear.
JASON FRAZELL 40:59
That’s a personal choice. What I would say, is that I personally love to buy from people that are passionate about what they do. And I like to talk to people that are passionate about what they do.
RHEA WONG 41;11
Well, and I think the other piece too is that people can sniff out phoniness a mile away. People want to deal with authenticity. And so if it’s coming off as authentic, like, hey, I am disappointed. I mean, you know, I would think about how you’re messaging them, but like, you’re also human, and people are going to appreciate that you’re human.
RHEA WONG 41:32
So I think we have time for one last question I’ve been asking a lot of my guests and Jason, this is very similar to the question you asked me on your podcast an hour ago, if you had a metaphorical billboard, to communicate anything to the world, what would be on your billboard?
JASON FRAZELL 41:53
Possibility exists outside what you believe you know.
RHEA WONG 41:56
I love that. I love that. You’re not always right. And anyone who has been married knows this.
JASON FRAZELL 42:03
Well, most people I haven’t quite figured this out yet.
RHEA WONG 42:07
I’m sure your wife has told you many times. Isn’t working folks connect with you on the interwebs?
JASON FRAZELL 42:13
On the interwebs, yeah! You can just go to my website. Just my name: jasonffrazell.com. From there, you can connect, please connect with me on Instagram and Facebook. I’m a podcaster, all that good stuff. But, yeah! My website is just the easiest place to go in. Hang out and get to know more about me.
RHEA WONG 42:29
Awesome! We will make sure to have all of your info in the show notes, including your podcast. Talking to Cool People that I was just on an hour ago.
JASON FRAZELL 42:37
So if Rhea can be on it, we know anybody can be on it.
RHEA WONG 42:40
I mean, not my dog. My dog is a terrible conversationalist.
JASON FRAZELL 42:44
A dog is a terrible conversationalist.
RHEA WONG 42:46
But very sweet.
JASON FRAZELL 42:48
Very sweet. Very sweet.
RHEA WONG 42;49
All right! Thanks so much, everyone. Jason, this is awesome. Appreciate you.
JASON FRAZELL 42:53
Yeah! Thanks to everybody joining us live today and everybody listening. Thanks for listening. Take care, everybody.
RHEA WONG
Take care. Have a good day.
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